On 7/20/2012 12:00 AM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 7:58 PM, Stephen P. King
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 7/19/2012 7:09 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Stephen P. King
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
To fix a typo
On 7/19/2012 3:46 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:
Dear Bruno,
I need to slow down and just address this question of
your as it seems to be the point where we disconnect from
understanding each other.
On 7/19/2012 10:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
At this stage I will ask you to define "physical".
The physical is the represented as the sum of
incontrovertible
<http://www.thefreedictionary.com/incontrovertible> facts
that mutually communicating observers have in common.
Some might say the only incontrovertible fact is "I think therefore I
am" but this can't be communicated.
So 2 is prime is physical?
Hi Jason,
Any physical implementation that communicates "2 is prime" is,
yes.
Where in physics does the 48th Mersenne Prime exist? How will it be
communicated to its discoverer?
How would I know that? You seem to misunderstand the meaning of the
word "exist" that I am using. Could you give us your definition of it?
The symbols that you are re3ading here, that are communicating to
you are physical, no? Is this somehow being overlooked?
You and I might agree on the incontrovertibly that there are an
infinite number of primes, but some (an infinite number) are too big
for us to communicate in the lifetime of the universe. According to
your theory of "to exist is to be communicated between two observers",
there would be only a finite number of primes (those short enough to
be communicated before the heat death of the universe).
You obviously believe that the finite universe that you observe is
all that exists. I don't. I also do not mistake potential infinities
from actual infinities. They are different.
What about uncertainties, like string theory, or many worlds?
Would those be nonphysical?
Indeed! If they can neither be experienced nor communicated
then they are by this definition unphysical. This is not unusual.
There are many solutions to accepted physics equations that are
similarly considered "unphysical" without any controversy.
Would the "physical world" for two observers A and B, be different
from two observers C and D?
Maybe, if C and D where perpetually incommunicado from A and B.
Event horizons have interesting consequences.
It is those facts that cannot be denied without introducing
contradictions, thus such things as "hallucinations" and
"mirages" are excluded. I guess that this definition might
seem tautological, but it seems to me to be the explanation
that has the longest reach in its power to explain what is
meant by the word. Additionally, physical refers to "objects
of the world"
What do you mean by "the world"?
Earth, This Hubble Volume, Everything beyond it in all dimensions
forever, all branches of the wavefunction, all possible string
theories, all self-consistent structures?
Any and all of those that satisfy the definition that I gave
above. It seems that people like axiomatic definitions, so have
some. ;-P The point is that without observers that act as the "to
whom meaning obtains" there is no such thing as meaningfulness.
This is my thumbnail argument against Platonism and any other
idealist ontology.
Could you clarify the argument? I don't understand it.
Maybe you don't wish to understand. That is your choice.
Abstracting away the entity to whom meaning exists is just
inverted semantic externalization
<http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb6405/is_3_68/ai_n58511111/>
and is equally fallacious. We can communicate all day about
things, including ourselves, as if they don't exist, but this does
not change any facts.
Just above you said communication is a requirement for physical existence.
Yes, but it is not the only requirement. Did you note the word "
incontrovertible"? Mutual consistency and communication are weak
requirements, but strong enough to to the job. It is how they are
achieved that is the fun part.
--
Onward!
Stephen
"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed."
~ Francis Bacon
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