On 8/24/2012 12:19 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 23 Aug 2012, at 03:21, Stephen P. King wrote:

Bruno does not seem to ever actually address this directly. It is left as an "open problem"


The body problem?

I address this directly as I show how we have to translate the body problem in a pure problem of arithmetic, and that is why eventually we cannot postulate anything physical to solve the mind body problem without losing the quanta qualia distinction. Again this is a conclusion of a reasoning.

Dear Bruno,

OK! But just take this one small step further. Losing the quanta / qualia distinction is the same thing as loosing the ability to define one's self. It is the vanishing of identity. This is exactly why I am claiming that step 8 goes too far! The idea that we can remove the necessity of a robust physical universe and yet retain all of its properties is the assumption of primitive substance but just turned inside-out. Look at the substance article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_theory

"Substance theory, or substance attribute theory, is an ontological theory about objecthood, positing that a substance is distinct from its properties. A thing-in-itself is a property-bearer that must be distinguished from the properties it bears."

What purpose does substance serve here? By Occam it is unnecessary and thus need not be postulated or imagined to exist. Primitive matter would be this notion of substance and as you point out, it is irrelevant. But the bundle of properties that define for us the appearance of physical "stuff" cannot be waved away. Reduction to bare arithmetic as you propose eliminates access to the very properties required for interaction and this includes the means to distinguish self from not self.

And AUDA is the illustration of the universal machine tackles that problem, and this gives already the theology of the machine, including its propositional physics (the logic of measure one).

But this is ignoring the non-constructable aspects that make out finite naming schemes have a relative measure zero. What is the measure of the Integers in the Reals?


There is really only one major disagreement between Bruno and I and it is our definitions of Universality. He defines computations and numbers are existing completely seperated from the physical and I insist that there must be at least one physical system that can actually implement a given computation.

This is almost revisionism. I challenge you to find a standard book in theoretical computer science in which the physical is even just invoked to define the notion of computation.

How about Turing's own papers? http://www.turingarchive.org/viewer/?id=459&title=1 Without the possibility of physical implementation (not attachment to any particular physical system which is contra universality) there is no possibility of any input or output control. Peter Wegner et al make some some powerful arguments in terms of interactive computation...



Most notion of physical implementations of computation use the mathematical notion above. Not the contrary. Deutsch' thesis is not Church's thesis.

Sure, but Deutsch is not trying to make computation float free of the physical world and thus severing its connection to us altogether. If we follow Kripke's idea of possible worlds, it seems to me that there would always be a physical system that can implement a given computation, even one that is the emulation of a very abstract logical schemata. You, the human being Bruno Marchal, are a good example of just such a physical system! The fact that I can even vaguely understand your ideas is my proof.


Bruno

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/





--
Onward!

Stephen

http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html


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