Hi Alberto G. Corona 

Adam Smith showed that "enlightened self-interest",
contrary to what a liberal might think, benefits
all.  The buyer gains goods, the seller gains capital. Society
is eventually enriched as well. Man would never have
survived with such all-enriching market trading.

Ayn Rand went overboard on the self-interest aspect,
advocating selfishness and self-esteem as goals to strive for.
I don't think that greed and egotism enhance life, though.

On the other hand, Rand's conservative economics was top rate.


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
8/31/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Alberto G. Corona 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-08-31, 05:23:23
Subject: Re: Is evolution moral ?


Take for example the most primitive form of competition: the fight in a tribe 
for a leader. You defeat your opponent using politics or a form of ritualized 
violence (sorry for the redundancy). Then if you are the best fit for the task 
and the competition is adequate, the overall fitness of the group is enhanced. 
Therefore, if there is group selection, and our ancestor had it, this kind of 
moral competition, ?ecomes a part of our moral psichology. As a result this, in 
fact, is an integral part of the inherent collaborative-competitive 
idiosincrasy of maleness. And it is highly moral, that is, there is profound 
perceived feeling in these activities of acting for the good of the group.


This is evident specially in the most primitive form of competition: ritualized 
violence, now called sports. The sportive spirit of winner and loser and the 
moral bond that unite both under the common good of his country or under the 
concept of humanity or greek people in the antiquity is a derivation of the 
spirit of internal competition for the good of the tribe.?


In other modern activities, for example in market competition, this spirit is 
not so deep since this activity do not connect with our cognitive habilities 
for core activities such is politics-defense-hunting, and sports, as a 
derivation of the latter. In sports for example, envy is absent, and sincere 
admiration is very common. This has a profund evolutionary as well as moral 
sense.?


2012/8/31 Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net>

Hi Bruno Marchal 
?
If IMHO the moral is that which enhances life,?
then not working tends to be immoral. 
?
It is interesting to try to combine this definition
with evolution. You might enhance your own life 
(and chance of generating more humans) by 
defeating a competitor, but the overall outcome
would be a wash (be amoral). Not sure.
?
I think that in dealing with morality, the
whole group should be considered -- at
least from the viewpoint of a god.
?
Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
8/31/2012 
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-08-30, 13:03:32
Subject: Re: No Chinese Room Necessary




On 29 Aug 2012, at 22:30, meekerdb wrote:


>From experience I know people tend not to adopt it, but let me recommend a 
>distinction.? Moral is what I expect of myself.? Ethics is what I do and what 
>I hope other people will do in their interactions with other people.? They of 
>course tend to overlap since I will be ashamed of myself if I cheat someone, 
>so it's both immoral and unethical.? But they are not the same.? If I spent my 
>time smoking pot and not working I'd be disappointed in myself, but it 
>wouldn't be unethical.



I'm not sure I understand. "not working" wouldn't be immoral either. 
Disappointing, yes, but immoral??


BTW:
I would not relate pot with not working. Some people don't work and smoke pot, 
and then blame pot for their non working, but some people smokes pot and work 
very well. The only researcher I knew smoking pot from early morning to 
evening, everyday, since hies early childhood, was the one who published the 
most, and get the most prestigious post in the US.?


As a math teacher, since I told students that blaming pot will not been allowed 
for justifying exam problems, some students realize that they were using pot to 
lie to themselves on their motivation for study. It is so easy.


Likewise, if we were allowed to drive while being drunk, after a while the 
number of car accidents due to alcohol would probably diminish a lot, because 
the real culprit is not this product or that behavior, but irresponsibility, 
which is encouraged by treating adults like children. I think.


Bruno




On 8/29/2012 8:54 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: 
Not only to lie. In order ?o commerce and in general to interact, we need to 
know what to expect from whom. and the other need to know what the others 
expect form me. So I have to reflect on myself in order to act in the 
enviromnent of the moral and material expectations that others have about me. 
This is the origin of reflective individuality, that is moral from the 
beginning..?


2012/8/29 meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net>

But Craig makes a point when he says computers only deal in words.? That's why 
something having human like intelligence and consciousness must be a robot, 
something that can act wordlessly in it's environment.? Evolutionarily 
speaking, conscious narrative is an add-on on top of subconscious thought which 
is responsible for almost everything we do.? Julian Jaynes theorized that 
humans did not become conscious in the modern sense until they engaged in 
inter-tribal commerce and it became important to learn to lie.

Brent




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