Hi Alberto G. Corona Competition incites a desire to win (incentive) ,which is very healthy (ie good), at least to a degree. This is contrary to liberal thought, which holds that if we are all equal, there should be no winners or losers.
For a little greed is what causes people to buy stocks, so a little greed is good. Greed is necessary due to the fear of taking such a risk. And to sell when things look too risky. Economics is in fact a psychological science. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function." ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Alberto G. Corona Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-31, 05:53:23 Subject: Re: Re: Is evolution moral ? Totally in agreement. The problem is that the market has not good cognitive/moral support in human psichology, because it is very recent. For one side, men acting in markets feels themselves as selfish and the winner is envied. This has'nt to be so, because engaging in the market is very good for the group. In the contrary, in sports and politics both things don't happens in general:. the participants has a sense of participation in a almost religious activity, and the winners are admired. the losers are appreciated too. As a consequence, free market advocates, like Ayn Rand intelectualize their point of view by positivizing bare selfishness, which is an error, because not all kinds of selfishness are good overall. These simplifications are a result of the absence of a science of moral. 2012/8/31 Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> Hi Alberto G. Corona Adam Smith showed that "enlightened self-interest", contrary to what a liberal might think, benefits all. The buyer gains goods, the seller gains capital. Society is eventually enriched as well. Man would never have survived with such all-enriching market trading. Ayn Rand went overboard on the self-interest aspect, advocating selfishness and self-esteem as goals to strive for. I don't think that greed and egotism enhance life, though. On the other hand, Rand's conservative economics was top rate. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function." ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Alberto G. Corona Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-31, 05:23:23 Subject: Re: Is evolution moral ? Take for example the most primitive form of competition: the fight in a tribe for a leader. You defeat your opponent using politics or a form of ritualized violence (sorry for the redundancy). Then if you are the best fit for the task and the competition is adequate, the overall fitness of the group is enhanced. Therefore, if there is group selection, and our ancestor had it, this kind of moral competition, ?ecomes a part of our moral psichology. As a result this, in fact, is an integral part of the inherent collaborative-competitive idiosincrasy of maleness. And it is highly moral, that is, there is profound perceived feeling in these activities of acting for the good of the group. This is evident specially in the most primitive form of competition: ritualized violence, now called sports. The sportive spirit of winner and loser and the moral bond that unite both under the common good of his country or under the concept of humanity or greek people in the antiquity is a derivation of the spirit of internal competition for the good of the tribe. In other modern activities, for example in market competition, this spirit is not so deep since this activity do not connect with our cognitive habilities for core activities such is politics-defense-hunting, and sports, as a derivation of the latter. In sports for example, envy is absent, and sincere admiration is very common. This has a profund evolutionary as well as moral sense. 2012/8/31 Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> Hi Bruno Marchal If IMHO the moral is that which enhances life, then not working tends to be immoral. It is interesting to try to combine this definition with evolution. You might enhance your own life (and chance of generating more humans) by defeating a competitor, but the overall outcome would be a wash (be amoral). Not sure. I think that in dealing with morality, the whole group should be considered -- at least from the viewpoint of a god. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 8/31/2012 Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function." ----- Receiving the following content ----- From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-08-30, 13:03:32 Subject: Re: No Chinese Room Necessary On 29 Aug 2012, at 22:30, meekerdb wrote: >From experience I know people tend not to adopt it, but let me recommend a >distinction. Moral is what I expect of myself. Ethics is what I do and what I >hope other people will do in their interactions with other people. They of >course tend to overlap since I will be ashamed of myself if I cheat someone, >so it's both immoral and unethical. But they are not the same. If I spent my >time smoking pot and not working I'd be disappointed in myself, but it >wouldn't be unethical. I'm not sure I understand. "not working" wouldn't be immoral either. Disappointing, yes, but immoral? BTW: I would not relate pot with not working. Some people don't work and smoke pot, and then blame pot for their non working, but some people smokes pot and work very well. The only researcher I knew smoking pot from early morning to evening, everyday, since hies early childhood, was the one who published the most, and get the most prestigious post in the US. As a math teacher, since I told students that blaming pot will not been allowed for justifying exam problems, some students realize that they were using pot to lie to themselves on their motivation for study. It is so easy. Likewise, if we were allowed to drive while being drunk, after a while the number of car accidents due to alcohol would probably diminish a lot, because the real culprit is not this product or that behavior, but irresponsibility, which is encouraged by treating adults like children. I think. Bruno On 8/29/2012 8:54 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Not only to lie. In order ?o commerce and in general to interact, we need to know what to expect from whom. and the other need to know what the others expect form me. So I have to reflect on myself in order to act in the enviromnent of the moral and material expectations that others have about me. This is the origin of reflective individuality, that is moral from the beginning.. 2012/8/29 meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> But Craig makes a point when he says computers only deal in words. That's why something having human like intelligence and consciousness must be a robot, something that can act wordlessly in it's environment. Evolutionarily speaking, conscious narrative is an add-on on top of subconscious thought which is responsible for almost everything we do. Julian Jaynes theorized that humans did not become conscious in the modern sense until they engaged in inter-tribal commerce and it became important to learn to lie. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
