Totally in agreement.
The problem is that the market has not good cognitive/moral support in
human psichology, because it is very recent. For one side, men acting in
markets feels themselves as selfish and the winner is envied. This has´nt
to be so, because engaging in the market is very good  for the group.

 In the contrary, in sports and politics both things don´t happens in
general:. the participants has a sense of participation in a almost
religious activity, and the winners are admired. the losers are appreciated
too.

As a consequence, free market advocates, like Ayn Rand intelectualize their
point of view by positivizing bare selfishness, which is an error, because
not all kinds of selfishness are good overall. These simplifications are a
result of  the absence of a science of moral.

2012/8/31 Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net>

>  Hi Alberto G. Corona
>
> Adam Smith showed that "enlightened self-interest",
> contrary to what a liberal might think, benefits
> all.  The buyer gains goods, the seller gains capital. Society
> is eventually enriched as well. Man would never have
> survived with such all-enriching market trading.
>
> Ayn Rand went overboard on the self-interest aspect,
> advocating selfishness and self-esteem as goals to strive for.
> I don't think that greed and egotism enhance life, though.
>
> On the other hand, Rand's conservative economics was top rate.
>
>
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
> 8/31/2012
> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
> so that everything could function."
>
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> *From:* Alberto G. Corona <agocor...@gmail.com>
> *Receiver:* everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
> *Time:* 2012-08-31, 05:23:23
> *Subject:* Re: Is evolution moral ?
>
>  Take for example the most primitive form of competition: the fight in a
> tribe for a leader. You defeat your opponent using politics or a form of
> ritualized violence (sorry for the redundancy). Then if you are the best
> fit for the task and the competition is adequate, the overall fitness of
> the group is enhanced. Therefore, if there is group selection, and our
> ancestor had it, this kind of moral competition, 燽ecomes a part of our
> moral psichology. As a result this, in fact, is an integral part of the
> inherent collaborative-competitive idiosincrasy of maleness. And it is
> highly moral, that is, there is profound perceived feeling in these
> activities of acting for the good of the group.
>
> This is evident specially in the most primitive form of competition:
> ritualized violence, now called sports. The sportive spirit of winner and
> loser and the moral bond that unite both under the common good of his
> country or under the concept of humanity or greek people in the antiquity
> is a derivation of the spirit of internal competition for the good of the
> tribe.�
>
> In other modern activities, for example in market competition, this spirit
> is not so deep since this activity do not connect with our cognitive
> habilities for core activities such is politics-defense-hunting, and
> sports, as a derivation of the latter. In sports for example, envy is
> absent, and sincere admiration is very common. This has a profund
> evolutionary as well as moral sense.�
>
> 2012/8/31 Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net>
>
>>  Hi Bruno Marchal
>> �
>> If IMHO the moral is that which enhances life,�
>> then not working tends to be immoral.
>> �
>> It is interesting to try to combine this definition
>> with evolution. You might enhance your own life
>> (and chance of generating more humans) by
>> defeating a competitor, but the overall outcome
>> would be a wash (be amoral). Not sure.
>> �
>> I think that in dealing with morality, the
>> whole group should be considered -- at
>> least from the viewpoint of a god.
>> �
>> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
>> 8/31/2012
>> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
>> so that everything could function."
>>
>> ----- Receiving the following content -----
>> *From:* Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
>> *Receiver:* everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
>> *Time:* 2012-08-30, 13:03:32
>> *Subject:* Re: No Chinese Room Necessary
>>
>>
>>  On 29 Aug 2012, at 22:30, meekerdb wrote:
>>
>>  From experience I know people tend not to adopt it, but let me
>> recommend a distinction.� Moral is what I expect of myself.� Ethics is what
>> I do and what I hope other people will do in their interactions with other
>> people.� They of course tend to overlap since I will be ashamed of myself
>> if I cheat someone, so it's both immoral and unethical.� But they are not
>> the same.� If I spent my time smoking pot and not working I'd be
>> disappointed in myself, but it wouldn't be unethical.
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure I understand. "not working" wouldn't be immoral either.
>> Disappointing, yes, but immoral?�
>>
>> BTW:
>> I would not relate pot with not working. Some people don't work and smoke
>> pot, and then blame pot for their non working, but some people smokes pot
>> and work very well. The only researcher I knew smoking pot from early
>> morning to evening, everyday, since hies early childhood, was the one who
>> published the most, and get the most prestigious post in the US.�
>>
>> As a math teacher, since I told students that blaming pot will not been
>> allowed for justifying exam problems, some students realize that they were
>> using pot to lie to themselves on their motivation for study. It is so easy.
>>
>> Likewise, if we were allowed to drive while being drunk, after a while
>> the number of car accidents due to alcohol would probably diminish a lot,
>> because the real culprit is not this product or that behavior, but
>> irresponsibility, which is encouraged by treating adults like children. I
>> think.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/29/2012 8:54 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote:
>>
>> Not only to lie. In order 爐o commerce and in general to interact, we need
>> to know what to expect from whom. and the other need to know what the
>> others expect form me. So I have to reflect on myself in order to act in
>> the enviromnent of the moral and material expectations that others have
>> about me. This is the origin of reflective individuality, that is moral
>> from the beginning..�
>>
>> 2012/8/29 meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net>
>>
>>> But Craig makes a point when he says computers only deal in words.�
>>> That's why something having human like intelligence and consciousness must
>>> be a robot, something that can act wordlessly in it's environment.�
>>> Evolutionarily speaking, conscious narrative is an add-on on top of
>>> subconscious thought which is responsible for almost everything we do.�
>>> Julian Jaynes theorized that humans did not become conscious in the modern
>>> sense until they engaged in inter-tribal commerce and it became important
>>> to learn to lie.
>>>
>>> Brent
>>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>  http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>
>>
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