Hi Roger Clough,

On 31 Aug 2012, at 11:43, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal

Sorry for the continual objections, but I'm just trying
to point out to you a hole in your thinking large enough to drive
a bus through.

LOL



However, you keep ignoring my objections,
only intended to be constructive, which is rude. So....


You object only to my working hypothesis. I just show that you are begging the question.




What parts or part of a DNA molecule controls life ?

What parts of the DNA molecules does not obey to the laws of physics (which are known to be Turing emulable)? I guess you agree that we can survive with an artificial heart, liver, blood, skin, ... Why not with an artificial brain? What is the part of the brain which disobeys to the physical laws?


The code is just a bunch of letters, same problem as
with the computer.

Humans cannot think either, with such argument, as an alien could consider them just as a bunch of molecules.



Letters can't think. A thinker is needed.

Letters can not add number, only a mathematician can, so a computer cannot add numbers.



To repeat, code by itself can't control anything.

A code can be implemented relatively to a universal code (computers) and can control partially itself, as computer science can illustrate. You are just saying than computers are stupid, without saying why. You reduce computer to some of their third person facets, but we know that they are *much* more.


The code is no different than a map without a reader.

The local physical universe can make that code acting on itself, and changing itself, in a non controllable or predictable way.

It is not the code who does the thinking, but the activity entailed by the decoding of the code, and the decoding is done by some other universal system.

Codes are like maps. Useless and passive without a reader.

The local universe, or the environment is the reader, like the enzyme RNA polymerase can translate DNA in RNA, and RNA is naturally decoded into protein and enzyme by the transfert and ribosomic RNAs, with the help of proteins and enzyme already build from that very process.

Bruno





Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
8/31/2012
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-08-31, 05:28:13
Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

William,


On 30 Aug 2012, at 22:27, William R. Buckley wrote:

Bruno:
I rather take issue with the notion that the living cell is not controlled by the genome. As biosemioticians (like Marcello Barbieri) teach us, there are a number of codes used in biological context, and each has a governing or controlling function within the corresponding context. The genome is clearly at the top of this hierarchy, with Natural Selection and mutational variation being higher-level controls on genome. Readability I think is well understood in terms of interactions between classes of molecules � ATP generation for one is rather well understood
these days.
Programmers (well experienced professionals) are especially sensitive to context issues.


I agree with all this. I guess you know that. If you think I said anything incoherent with this, please quote me.

Bruno



wrb
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com ] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:12 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence
On 29 Aug 2012, at 20:09, Craig Weinberg wrote:




On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:22:38 PM UTC-4, William R. Buckley wrote: Cells are indeed controlled by software (as represented in wetware form � i.e. DNA). It isn't really clear exactly what controls what in a living cell. I can say that cars are controlled by traffic signals, clocks, and calendars.

To whatever we ascribe control, we only open up another level of unexplained control beneath it. What makes DNA readable to a ribosome? What makes anything readable to anything? Encoding and decoding, or application and abstraction, or addition and multiplication, ...



Sense is irreducible.
From the first person perspective. Yes. For machine's too.


No software can control anything, even itself, unless something has the power to make sense of it as software and the power to execute that sense within itself as causally efficacious motive. This seems to me like justifying the persistence of the physical laws by invoking God. It is too quick gap filling for me, and does not explain anything, as relying on fuzzy vague use of words. I might find sense there, but in the context of criticizing mechanism, I find that suspicious, to be frank.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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