Hi Bruno Marchal  

A brain in a vat would probably have an autonomous self, 
which is needed for everything the brain does. 

I don't see how an autonomous self can be present in
a computer, because autonomous means it can't depend
on anything--- especially not hardware or software.

Let me also say it this alternate way. The output
of an algorithm (let's say a choice, given an input) 
is always dependent on what the algorithm did.  
And algorithms are software.

Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
10/1/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Bruno Marchal  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-10-01, 11:32:07 
Subject: Re: Attacking the brain transplant experiment 


On 01 Oct 2012, at 16:32, Roger Clough wrote: 

> 
> 
> Those who have faith in the possibility of brain 
> transplants might consider this: 
> 
> You cannot separate the self (your ID) from the body. 
> 
> Your skin, the envelope of your body and self, 
> is part of you, meaning your self. Why ? 
> If somebody pricks you with a pin, it causes a body reaction. 

Do you agree that a brain in a vat can in principle dream about pins  
and skins, and skins sensations? 

If "yes", why not a computer? And thus a number relatively to some  
universal numbers? 

If "no", you introduce some magic to keep on some wishes, I think. In  
particular, you introduce infinities and non computability in the  
personhood, which is rather speculative imo. Anyway, you would go out  
of my working hypothesis, which might be very close to Leibniz, though. 

Bruno 


> Yoga also uses this wholistic bodymind approach, 
> relaxing muscles relaxwes the mind. Pretty obvious. 
> 
> The sense of touch is our most intimate sense, 
> and that's part of the skin. Intimate to the self. 
> 
> But free will arguments typically leave out the body 
> as a determinant. So, including body in the definition 
> of the self, I prefer to use the term "self-determination", 
> meaning that our will and thought and desifre 
> is affected by everything within our skin. 
> 
> 
> 
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
> 10/1/2012 
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
> 
> 
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> From: Stephen P. King 
> Receiver: everything-list 
> Time: 2012-09-30, 14:23:50 
> Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment 
> 
> 
> On 9/30/2012 8:39 AM, Roger Clough wrote: 
>> Only life evolves, and steel claws, being made of steel, are not  
>> alive, 
>> at least in the ordinary sense (Leibniz believed that everything in 
>> the universe is alive). So what you propose couldn't happen. 
> 
> The unstated assumption here is that organism are defined by the 
> bounding surface of their skin, anything 'outside' of that is being 
> assumed to not be part of them. It is not hard to knock down this idea 
> as nonsensical! 
> 
> --  
> Onward! 
> 
> Stephen 
> 
> 
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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 



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