Hi Stephen P. King  

Numbers did not evolve, they always were.
And always will be.  Only imperfect things need
to evolve (or can).

All necessary truths have always been.
The Pythagorean Theorem would be useful to 
design snowflakes, no ?

Contingency is the world of change, which
is required for evolution. Imperfect things
evolve, they are part of Contingia. 

But perfect things always were.

Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
10/1/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Stephen P. King  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-09-30, 19:56:20 
Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment 


On 9/30/2012 7:47 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 
> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 4:13 AM, Stephen P. King  wrote: 
>> On 9/30/2012 5:44 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: 
>> 
>> On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Craig Weinberg  
>> wrote: 
>> 
>> Organisms can utilize inorganic minerals, sure. Salt would be a better 
>> example as we can actually eat it in its pure form and we actually need to 
>> eat it. But that's completely different than a living cell made of salt and 
>> iron that eats sand. The problem is that the theory that there is no reason 
>> why this might not be possible doesn't seem to correspond to the reality 
>> that all we have ever seen is a very narrow category of basic biologically 
>> active substances. It's not that I have a theory that there couldn't be 
>> inorganic life, it is just that the universe seems very heavily invested in 
>> the appearance that such a thing is not merely unlikely or impossible, but 
>> that it is the antithesis of life. My suggestion is that we take that rather 
>> odd but stubbornly consistent hint of a truth as possibly important data. 
>> Failing to do that is like assuming that mixing carbon monoxide in the air 
>> shouldn't be much different than mixing in some carbon dioxide. 
>> 
>> I don't really understand what you're saying. It would seem to be an 
>> advantage for an organism to develop something like steel claws or a 
>> gun with chemical explosives and bullets, but there are no such 
>> organisms on Earth. Nature does not abhor inorganic matter since by 
>> weight most living organisms are inorganic matter. So why are there no 
>> organisms with steel claws or guns? The simplest explanation 
>> consistent with the facts is that it was difficult for the 
>> evolutionary process to pull this off. You claim it is because it is 
>> "the antithesis of life". Why, when there is an obvious and better 
>> explanation consistent with Occam's Razor? 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Stathis, 
>> 
>> Humans are not organisms in Nature? Your statement is only true if they 
>> are not. How did this come to happen? Your thesis here requires that the 
>> existence of Humans with steel claws and with guns is, somehow, outside of 
>> the definition of "organisms". How the heck does this happen???? 
> Everything that happens in nature is natural, that's one way of 
> looking at it. But there is a difference between things that develop 
> through mutation and natural selection and things that are designed. 
> 
Hi Stathis, 

     What is the real difference? Any argument that we might make about  
"things that are designed" can easily be turned around and used as an  
argument for "Intelligent Design" of the universe itself. Nature is  
either an integrated and mutually consistent whole or it is not. Things  
evolve by "natural" processes or they do not. There is no middle ground  
here unless we are introducing an arbitrary preference for a particular  
definition: i.e. what ever is the product of mankind's peculiar  
processes in the cosmos is "designed" and what ever is not related to  
the particulars of Mankind's peculiarities is not "designed". If we do  
that then we have to have a good reason. 
     So I am asking you. Why make that distinction? What is the  
difference that makes a difference? 

--  
Onward! 

Stephen 


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