Hi Stephen P. King  

"intelligent design" is an oxymoronism. You can't have design without 
intelligence. 
It requires intelligence to form a design, whether by God, by humans or by 
nature. 

So there had to be some sort of intelligence prior to the Big Bang in order for 
the universe
to have design or structure. Fill in the dots.


Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 
10/1/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 


----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Stephen P. King  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-09-30, 20:29:55 
Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment 


On 9/30/2012 8:07 PM, meekerdb wrote: 

On 9/30/2012 4:56 PM, Stephen P. King wrote:  
On 9/30/2012 7:47 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:  

On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 4:13 AM, Stephen P. King  wrote:  

On 9/30/2012 5:44 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:  

On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Craig Weinberg   
wrote:  

Organisms can utilize inorganic minerals, sure. Salt would be a better  
example as we can actually eat it in its pure form and we actually need to  
eat it. But that's completely different than a living cell made of salt and  
iron that eats sand. The problem is that the theory that there is no reason  
why this might not be possible doesn't seem to correspond to the reality  
that all we have ever seen is a very narrow category of basic biologically  
active substances. It's not that I have a theory that there couldn't be  
inorganic life, it is just that the universe seems very heavily invested in  
the appearance that such a thing is not merely unlikely or impossible, but  
that it is the antithesis of life. My suggestion is that we take that rather  
odd but stubbornly consistent hint of a truth as possibly important data.  
Failing to do that is like assuming that mixing carbon monoxide in the air  
shouldn't be much different than mixing in some carbon dioxide.  

I don't really understand what you're saying. It would seem to be an  
advantage for an organism to develop something like steel claws or a  
gun with chemical explosives and bullets, but there are no such  
organisms on Earth. Nature does not abhor inorganic matter since by  
weight most living organisms are inorganic matter. So why are there no  
organisms with steel claws or guns? The simplest explanation  
consistent with the facts is that it was difficult for the  
evolutionary process to pull this off. You claim it is because it is  
"the antithesis of life". Why, when there is an obvious and better  
explanation consistent with Occam's Razor?  


Hi Stathis,  

     Humans are not organisms in Nature? Your statement is only true if they  
are not. How did this come to happen? Your thesis here requires that the  
existence of Humans with steel claws and with guns is, somehow, outside of  
the definition of "organisms". How the heck does this happen????  

Everything that happens in nature is natural, that's one way of  
looking at it. But there is a difference between things that develop  
through mutation and natural selection and things that are designed.  


Hi Stathis,  

    What is the real difference? Any argument that we might make about "things 
that are designed" can easily be turned around and used as an argument for 
"Intelligent Design" of the universe itself. Nature is either an integrated and 
mutually consistent whole or it is not. Things evolve by "natural" processes or 
they do not. There is no middle ground here unless we are introducing an 
arbitrary preference for a particular definition: i.e. what ever is the product 
of mankind's peculiar processes in the cosmos is "designed" and what ever is 
not related to the particulars of Mankind's peculiarities is not "designed". If 
we do that then we have to have a good reason.  
    So I am asking you. Why make that distinction? What is the difference that 
makes a difference?  



The difference is that human designers have in mind some goal for their design, 
they can start from a clean sheet or modify and existing design, they can 
design, build and test things without making lots of copies. 



    How does your new remark answer my question? Are Humans somehow special? 
Are we not part of the integrate whole that is Nature? 


--  
Onward! 

Stephen

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