On 01 Oct 2012, at 01:56, Stephen P. King wrote:

On 9/30/2012 7:47 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 4:13 AM, Stephen P. King <stephe...@charter.net > wrote:
On 9/30/2012 5:44 AM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com >

Organisms can utilize inorganic minerals, sure. Salt would be a better example as we can actually eat it in its pure form and we actually need to eat it. But that's completely different than a living cell made of salt and iron that eats sand. The problem is that the theory that there is no reason why this might not be possible doesn't seem to correspond to the reality that all we have ever seen is a very narrow category of basic biologically active substances. It's not that I have a theory that there couldn't be inorganic life, it is just that the universe seems very heavily invested in the appearance that such a thing is not merely unlikely or impossible, but that it is the antithesis of life. My suggestion is that we take that rather odd but stubbornly consistent hint of a truth as possibly important data. Failing to do that is like assuming that mixing carbon monoxide in the air
shouldn't be much different than mixing in some carbon dioxide.

I don't really understand what you're saying. It would seem to be an
advantage for an organism to develop something like steel claws or a
gun with chemical explosives and bullets, but there are no such
organisms on Earth. Nature does not abhor inorganic matter since by
weight most living organisms are inorganic matter. So why are there no
organisms with steel claws or guns? The simplest explanation
consistent with the facts is that it was difficult for the
evolutionary process to pull this off. You claim it is because it is
"the antithesis of life". Why, when there is an obvious and better
explanation consistent with Occam's Razor?

Hi Stathis,

Humans are not organisms in Nature? Your statement is only true if they are not. How did this come to happen? Your thesis here requires that the existence of Humans with steel claws and with guns is, somehow, outside of
the definition of "organisms". How the heck does this happen????
Everything that happens in nature is natural, that's one way of
looking at it. But there is a difference between things that develop
through mutation and natural selection and things that are designed.

Hi Stathis,

What is the real difference? Any argument that we might make about "things that are designed" can easily be turned around and used as an argument for "Intelligent Design" of the universe itself. Nature is either an integrated and mutually consistent whole or it is not. Things evolve by "natural" processes or they do not. There is no middle ground here unless we are introducing an arbitrary preference for a particular definition: i.e. what ever is the product of mankind's peculiar processes in the cosmos is "designed" and what ever is not related to the particulars of Mankind's peculiarities is not "designed". If we do that then we have to have a good reason. So I am asking you. Why make that distinction? What is the difference that makes a difference?

The difference between artificial and natural is artificial. And thus it is natural too, apparently for species which develop big ego and develop a feeling of superiority: the Löbian trap, we could say.

Evolution is no more intelligent than universal non Löbian arithmetic, humans are no more intelligent than any Löbian machine. The difference which makes the difference might be Löbianity: the fact that we can know that we are universal (and Löbian). Löbianity arrives with the induction axioms, and that is indeed what makes us able to *foreseen* possible futures, to feel different from others, to develop selves, and self-consciousness, etc.



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