On Tue, Oct 9, 2012  Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have no trouble at all saying that zero computers are conscious and
> that all living people have had conscious experiences.

Fine say what you want, but I'll never be able to prove you right and I'll
never be able to prove you wrong so what you're saying on that subject,
even if you're managing to say it with no trouble, is of little interest.

> Why do you think that you know that? What makes a behavior intelligent?
> Over how long a time period are we talking about? Is a species as a whole
> intelligent? Are ecosystems intelligent? Caves full of growing crystals?

Sorry but 6 rhetorical questions in a row exceeds my rhetorical quota.

> When did I ever say that I am the only conscious being in the universe?

I give up, when did you say that you are the only conscious being in the
universe? And if you didn't say it I'd be curious to know why you did not
say it as no behavior by your fellow creatures can prove you are not.

> They are literally automatons.

Computers and automatons are no different from you, they do things for a
reason or they do not do things for a reason.

> A rock will not sing showtunes if given a chance.

That is totally incorrect. A rock will sing show tunes so beautifully it
will make the original cast of Cats weep, all it needs is for the atoms in
the rock to be organized in the correct way, and to do that all you need is
very small fingers and information.

> If they [computers] caused everything to happen without us, then there
> would be no us.


> What does that have to do with this idea of yours that intelligence can
> exist without consciousness?

I don't know because I don't know what the hell you're talking about.
That's not my idea, in fact although I can't prove it I've said many times
that I very strongly suspect that intelligence can NOT exist without
consciousness, that's why I very strongly suspect that my fellow human
beings are conscious like me, at least they are when they are not sleeping
or under anesthesia or dead. The reason I'm so confident of this is that
Evolution would have no reason to produce consciousness if it were not
linked with intelligence.

>>  I give up, who claims to know that intelligence without consciousness
>> exists?
> > You. Very insistently: "intelligent behavior WITHOUT consciousness
> confers a Evolutionary advantage.

Yes I said that and I stand by the fact that intelligent behavior without
consciousness confers a Evolutionary advantage over non-intelligent
behavior with or without consciousness, and I stand by my comment that
intelligent behavior with consciousness confers no additional Evolutionary
advantage. However important consciousness may be to us to Evolution it's a
useless fifth wheel, and yet it produced this useless thing, so it must be
a byproduct of something that is not useless, like intelligence.

> A computer beating you at chess is evidence that the intelligent behavior
> of conscious computer programmers is effective at fooling you that the
> computer is intelligent and conscious.

Fooling you?? It is a factual depiction of reality that the computer beat
you at chess and there is no doubt about it, its right there in front of
your eyes! You lost, the computer won, its a fact. If there is any fooling
going on it's directed inward and you're trying to fool yourself into
thinking that you have not really lost, or you're just being a sore looser
and whining that the computer cheated in some vague undefined way.

And if the computer's intelligence, as displayed by skillfully playing the
game, is just due to "the intelligent behavior of conscious computer
programmers" then I don't understand why the machine can beat those
programmers as easily as it beat you. And I don't even understand why you
believe those computer programmers were conscious.

>>  what behavior gave you the clue that it would be a misinterpretation to
>> attribute consciousness to something?
> > Every behavior of a computer gives me the clue. They will sit and do the
> same thing over and over forever.

It's true that existing computers seem a tad autistic, but then humans went
to great pains to give them that attribute.

> They [computers] are incapable of figuring out when they are wrong

Exactly precisely like some human beings I know.

> Piaget proved it.

Bullshit! Piaget proved stuff about behavior but he proved nothing about
consciousness, not even that it exists.

> I agree that emotion is more primitive than actual intelligence

So you think it would be easier to make a emotional computer than a
intelligent one.

> "behavior that is not hardwired in the genes". Sounds like free will.

Cannot comment, don't know what ASCII characters "free will" mean.

> My explanation works (at least to the extent that you have no
> counterfactuals).

 I don't understand what sort of counter factual you're talking about.

> Why is panexperientialism begging the question if it's true?

Because it just says that consciousness exists because consciousness exists
and consciousness is made of consciousness. I already knew that and,
although true without a doubt, it is not one bit helpful in figuring out
how the world works.

> Intelligence has no use for consciousness if it can already behave
> intelligently

Correct, and yet consciousness exists, thus if Darwin was right then
consciousness MUST be a byproduct of intelligence.

John K Clark

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