On 09 Oct 2012, at 12:34, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Craig Weinberg

Consciousness had to arise before language.
Apes are conscious.

OK.

I think that all animals and plants are conscious, although not on a really common scale with most animals.

I think all animals "above" the octopus, including some spiders, are self-conscious.

Today.

Bruno






Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/9/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen


----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Craig Weinberg
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-08, 14:23:18
Subject: Re: Zombieopolis Thought Experiment




On Monday, October 8, 2012 1:35:31 PM UTC-4, Brent wrote:
On 10/8/2012 8:42 AM, John Clark wrote:
2) Intelligent behavior is NOT associated with subjective experience, in which case there is no reason for Evolution to produce consciousness and I have no explanation for why I am here, and I have reason to believe that I am the only conscious being in the universe.

There's a third possibility: Intelligent behavior is sometimes associated with subjective experience and sometimes not. Evolution may have produced consciousness as a spandrel, an accident of the particular developmental path that evolution happened upon. Or it may be that consciousness is necessarily associated with only certain kinds of intelligent behavior, e.g. those related to language.


You are almost right but have it upside down. When someone gets knocked unconscious, can they continue to behave intelligently? Can a baby wake up from a nap and become conscious before they learn language?

What would lead us to presume that consciousness itself could supervene on intelligence except if we were holding on to a functionalist metaphysics?

Clearly human intelligence in each individual supervenes on their consciousness and clearly supercomputers can't feel any pain or show any signs of fatigue that would suggest a state of physical awareness despite their appearances of 'intelligence'.

If you flip it over though, you are right. Everything is conscious to some extent, but not everything is intelligent in a cognitive sense. The assumption of strong AI is that we can take the low hanging fruit of primitive consciousness and attach it to the tree tops of anthropological quality intelligence and it will grow a new tree into outer space.

Craig




Bretn

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