On 24 Oct 2012, at 15:43, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal

Anything that the brain does is or could be experience.
For computers, experience can only be simulated because

experience = self + qualia

In the theory I represent the self by the B. Bp = my self believes p. (I can translate it in arithmetic, or fortran, ...)

You get the qualia by linking the belief with the consistency: Bp & Dt, and you get the sensations by linking this with truth: Bp & Dt & p.

The Dt makes it unprovable, and the p makes it unexpressible, by the machine. But the machine can also bet that she is (correct) machines and study the logic of its own qualia, and compare with what she feels, etc, when talking with other machines (all this relatively to its more probable computations).

Bp is I believe p, in the sense that p is true for all my extensions.
Dt is I am alive, or, I have at least one extension, or "I am not in a cul-de-sac world". p alone means 'p is true'. (this works as I limit myself to correct machine).

Bruno









Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
10/24/2012
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen


----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-10-24, 07:37:32
Subject: Re: Solipsism = 1p


On 23 Oct 2012, at 15:11, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal





ROGER: OK, but computers can't experience anything,
it would be simulated experience. Not arbitrarily available.


But that's what the brain does, simulate experience from the point of
view of the owner or liver of the experience. According to some
theory. You can't talk like if you knew that this is false.

ROGER: Simulated experience would be objective, such
as is given by the text of a novel (knowledge by description). True
experience is the subjective experience of the mind --knowledge
by aquaintance. These are obviously substantially different.

The term silulated experience is ambiguous, and I should not have use.
I wiuld say that by definition of comp, simulated experience =
experience.





BRUNO: You are right, it is not the material computer who thinks,
nor the
physical brains who thinks, it is the owner (temporarily) of the
brain, or of the computers which does the thinking (and that can
include a computer itself, if you let it develop beliefs).

ROGER: I don't think so.

The owner of the brain is the self.

But although the owner of a computer will have a
self, so would anybody else involved in creating
the computer or software also have one.

Are trying to say that I or anybody else can cause
the computer to be conscious ?

No. Only the computer, or a similar one. Actually *all* similar one
existing in arithmetic, in their relative ways.




If wave collapse causes
consciousness, there are objective theories of wave collapse
called decoherence theories which seem more realistic to me.

Decoherence needs MWI to work.




But I can't seem to see how these could work on a computer.

Right. the idea that consciousness cause the collapse of the wave (an
idea which already refutes special relativity) is inconsistent with
comp.

Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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