Hi Bruno Marchal 

That's right. One can refrain from sinning
because of love of God rather than fear of Hell.
I sometimes try to do that when I don't feel 
that guilty personally.

It's just like you would be moral because that's
what your parents want you to be. 

"It's the right thing to do."

not be moral because you fear they'll punish you.


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
12/19/2012 
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen

----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Bruno Marchal 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-12-19, 11:25:07
Subject: Re: Men don't get no respect these days


Hi Roger,


On 17 Dec 2012, at 19:34, Roger Clough wrote:


Hi Telmo Menezes 

By killing the father, I meant belittling the male,
but come to think of it, I don't recall seeing 
anything direct except in the ads and how
men were treated on the screen. But it's
been achieved. 

And indeed, there have been many atrocities
committed in God's name. But they really
din't fear God-- because murder is forbidden
in any religion I can think of.

Religion doesn't make the USA better because
most of our religion is just church-going-- social
Christianity.  



I would prefer, if possible, that another does not harm me, not because he fear 
god, but because he is a good guy. Or perhaps he suspects himself to be me and 
naturally avoids the unnecessary harm.


It is enough to fear the Devil, for God sake.


For the Neoplatonist, God is good, by definition. You can't really fear the 
good. No?


Or perhaps you are or feel guilty? Even in that case I would think that it is 
better to fear the Devil than God.


But to be honest,  I am sure of nothing, on this plane, and I am perhaps 
extending a bit wildly the arithmetical interpretation of Plotinus on the 
Enneads not yet treated "arithmetically". (= in layman term, I have not 
interviewed the LUM on this).


Yet, to fear God seems to me almost like a contradiction. God is truth, and I 
can imagine a reasonable amount of reasonable fears, but for the neoplatonist 
God is good, also, and it is more the departure from truth which are to be 
feared, in the limit. It is the departure from truth which might make truth 
looking frightening, after sometimes, but that's what the Devil will exploited.


Bruno









[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
12/17/2012 
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen

----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Telmo Menezes 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-12-17, 09:12:39
Subject: Re: Men don't get no respect these days


Hi Roger, 


Lakoff is correct about conservatism and the father.
It is not a pathology, however, to?espect your ?arents,


Agreed.
and respect is a mixture of love and fear.


For me respect is a mixture of love and admiration, which are things that have 
to be earned. I loved and admired my father. I never feared him. To fear him I 
would have to believe that he was willing to harm me, and that would probably 
interfere with the love/admiration part.


My mother is a catholic and my father was agnostic. He agreed to put me through 
religious school and remain neutral on the entire thing. Up to one day when I 
was a little kid and couldn't sleep because I was afraid of going to hell. He 
told me: "don't worry, that god they are telling you about doesn't exist". It 
was the biggest relief in my life.


Religion tried to instill fear into me, when I was a little kid and 
psychologically vulnerable. My father taught me how to be a decent human being, 
no strings attached. Guess who I still love these days?
That's one of the ten commandments.
And if people feared God more, incidents like the
mass murders in CT would be much fewer. God
should be returned to the classroom. It doesn't have to be 
the Christian God.


Let's not even discuss the mountain of atrocities that were committed in God's 
name. A recent one: 9/11.


The USA (a country I greatly admire for its many achievements, including its 
constitution) is currently the least secular country in the western world. Yet 
it's the only place where this stuff is happening. How come?


Here in godless Europe we have the lowest levels of church attendance ever, 
legalised prostitution, gay marriage, decriminalised drugs and it's ok to show 
female breasts on TV. Yet none of that stuff is happening here. The only 
similar event we had was?erpetrated?y a god fearing hard-core conservative.
The Women's Movement has unfortunately killed
the father in their understable desire for wage equality etc.


I had a great father. Many of my childhood friends did too, and then became 
fathers themselves, and they seem to be doing well. What do you mean exactly?
I challenge you to find one ad on TV or radio that
does not feature a man as other than a fool.
And the death of the father has turned progressives into
anarchists. The death of the father is the deathy of morality.
It's the main problem with society today.


By objective metrics measuring violence, society nowadays is the best it ever 
was. The likelihood of you being the victim of a violent crime is the lowest 
ever. Mainstream media blows things out of proportion, that's all.


Best,
Telmo.
[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
12/17/2012 
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Craig Weinberg 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-12-16, 01:02:40
Subject: Re: Wisdom from Calvin Cooldge




On Sunday, December 16, 2012 12:15:28 AM UTC-5, Stephen Paul King wrote: 
On 12/15/2012 5:51 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

Can you answer my question?


Because conservatives generally speak from the perspective of the dominant 
culture. 

Hi Craig,

? Are there some other characteristics of conservatives that identifies them? 
Does the particular nature of the culture matter for you?


Lakoff seems to be on to something when he says that conservatives represent 
the view of the strict father oriented family. Which gibes with the whole 
'pathology rooted in fear and aggression' diagnosis in that study I quoted. 



The perspective is always - 'people who aren't like me have it easy' or 
'inequality isn't important'. It's never 'yes, of course as a white male in the 
US, I am among the most privileged people who has ever lived, and I recognize 
the problems that might pose to others outside of my group and how important it 
is to address those problems and participate with those others as equals to the 
extent that I can.'


? OK, being born into a class automatically places a burden on one's life or 
otherwise coerces a person to act in a certain way? Really? Is this an absolute 
fact? Care for a minority report on that?


It's not about how a person acts, it's about where the person is allowed to 
act. What country clubs they have access to. How long they have to tour Europe 
after college before they get come home and apply for six figure jobs.


Craig





-- 
Onward!

Stephen


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