Roger,
Don't you believe you already have eternal life.
I do and I am not even Christian.
Richard

On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 6:37 AM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Hi Bruno Marchal and all,
>
> Do you not realize that 1p far enough into the past (presumably accessible
> to time travel), where your parents and past friends are still alive,
> is a form of eternal life ?
>
>
> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
> 12/23/2012
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen
>
>
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> From: Bruno Marchal
> Receiver: everything-list
> Time: 2012-12-22, 08:09:59
> Subject: Re: Against Mechanism
>
>
> On 20 Dec 2012, at 22:18, John Clark wrote:
>
> On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 5:30 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>
>>> >> You are asking about the present first person point of view of
>>> >> someone,
>>
>>
>> > NO. read the question: it is about a future first personal event.
>
>
> That is totally false! The Helsinki man  is informing you about his PRESENT
> first person state of mind, he may be preoccupied trying to guess about what
> his future state of mind could be but that doesn't change the fact that you
> cannot communicate with the future Helsinki man you can only ask questions
> to the present Helsinki man and regardless of the subject of his thoughts he
> can only tell you about his present state of mind.
>>
>> >> Bruno Marchal has said, and John Clark agrees, that both the Moscow Man
>> >> and the Washington Man are the Helsinki Man, and so assuming that the
>> >> Helsinki Man believed the same thing and is rational, then the conclusion 
>> >> is
>> >> obvious, the Helsinki Man will say that the Helsinki man will see 
>> >> Washington
>> >> AND Moscow.
>>
>> >In the 3p view,
>
>
> Yes, and as I've said before if 2 things are identical in the 3p they are
> certainly identical in the 1p, although the reverse is not necessarily true.
>
>>
>> > but the question is about the future 1p view
>
>
> In a world with duplicating chambers there is no such thing as "the" future
> 1p view.
>
>
> Of course there is. There are two such future 1-view. The 1-view of the
> M-man, and the 1-view of the W-man. If they don't exist, you would die, and
> comp is false. The use "the" is just an emphasis on the fact that, although
> there are two such view, they are felt unique by the experimenter.
>
>
>
>
>>> For example: suppose the Washington Man said the Helsinki Man's
>>> prediction in the past about a hypothetical first person point of view that
>>> would occur in the future turned out to be wrong, would that mean that the
>>> Washington man would no longer feel in his gut that he was the Helsinki Man?
>>> Of course not! That's why to follow a chain of identity the way to go is
>>> from the present to the past not from the present to the future.
>>
>> >But we have to do prediction to confirm or refute a theory on reality,
>> > which is the present case.
>
>
> Not with personal identity we don't! If you are like me and most people you
> have made predictions about what you will do that turn out to be wrong, but
> incorrect or not when that happens you still feel like you were the one that
> made the prediction.
>
>
> Exactly, and that is why if you predict W and M, both will rightly admit
> having been wrong.
>
>
>
>
>> >>> This is just obviously wrong. It is correct in the 3p picture, but the
>> >>> question was about the 1p picture.
>
>
>>> And that's the problem right there, THERE IS NO "THE" 1P PICTURE, THERE
>>> IS ONLY "A" 1P PICTURE!
>>
>> > And?
>
>
> And so in a world with duplicating machines asking about "the"  future 1p
> picture is as silly as asking how long is a piece of string because it
> depends on the string.
>
>
> Then QM without collapse is refuted at once.
>
>
>
>
>> > It is not weird as it is only an indetermination on the person result
>> > after a self-duplication. the math are easy to do,
>
>
> It's not just the math, everything about it is easy; the one that sees
> Washington is the Washington Man and the Washington Man is the one who sees
> Washington. What more do you want to know about it? What more is there to
> know?
>
>
> The technic to predict the future when we are multiplied, like in
> QM-without-collapse, or in arithmetic.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> >> both remember being the Helsinki Man, so although different both ARE
>> >> the Helsinki Man,
>>
>>
>>>
>>> > Exactly, and that is why the question makes sense.
>
>
> So does the answer, the Helsinki man will see both cities.
>
>
> In the 3p view, that's correct, but fail to answer the question asked.
>
>
>
>
>
>> > If he was asked on the 3p view after the duplication.
>
>
> Apparently asking somebody something "on the 3p" is supposed to be different
> than just asking somebody, but I have no idea how.
>
>
> Take the QS as example: the most probable 3p outcome is the guy died. The
> most probable experimenter 1p outcome, is "I stay alive". When
> self-multiplication exist, the 1p and 3p difference play a big role, in both
> comp and Everett QM.
>
> Bruno
>
>
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
>
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