Hi Telmo Menezes  

This is truly amazing wizardry.   


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
12/24/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 

----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Telmo Menezes  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-12-22, 07:27:42 
Subject: Re: More on reconstruction from brain activity 


Hi Roger, 



On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Roger Clough  wrote: 

Hi Telmo Menezes  
  
You're right, I got the scanning part all wrong. 
  
You can find sites that may tell more by Googling on 
  
Reconstruction from brain activity  
  
Apparently they use complex brain modelling programs  
with complex AI to somehow get images.  


Yup, there are other applications too: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain%E2%80%93computer_interface 

  
  
While they have had some (presumably limited) success on moving 
images, trying to do that with static images would be 
the first thing to try,  


I am not a neuroscientist (just a computer scientist), but from my 
understanding of how the brain works, static images might actually be harder. 
The brain is constantly trying to do pattern matching and anticipating future 
states, so it might never really "work" with static images (unless you read 
directly from the optic nerve). 


Have you ever had this thing where you're sitting in a room and an object 
suddenly seems to appear out of nowhere? Some people do, and the reason is that 
the brain is only paying attention to a subset of your visual field, and making 
up all the other stuff from pattern matching with previous experiences. 
Suddenly it notices the object and has to update your visual representation in 
a less-graceful way. 
  
but even that looks like voodoo to me. 
  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_identification 
  
gives an overall treatment of reading thoughts. 
  
One of my lady friend's relatives  is doing brain modelling 
at U MD in Baltimore, I suspect that he might be into 
such stuff. 


Well, marry Christmas to you and your lady friend (from an annoying 
agnostic/atheist). 
  
  
[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
12/21/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
  
----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Telmo Menezes  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-12-20, 06:17:25 
Subject: Re: How visual images are produced in the brain. Was Dennett 
rightafter all ? 


Hi Roger,  


  
I accidentally sent the previous email before  
I was done, sorry. Please consider this more complete version 
of the intended whole: 
  
Hi Telmo, 
  
Those images in the videoclips, while still remarkable,  
probably were constructed simply by monitoring 
sensory MRI signals just as one might from a video camera,   
and displaying them as a raster pattern, artificially  
converting the time voltage signal into a timespace signal. 


Ok. We're not even sure what we're looking at. The brain is a gigantic^n 
kludge. We are seeing stuff happening in the visual cortex that can be 
meaningfully mapped to images. This stuff correlates with what the subject is 
seeing, but in a weird way. So we can speculate that we're watching, for 
example, a pattern matching process taking place. The most spectacular thing 
for me is when we see the anticipation of the ink blot explosion. That's 
something you wouldn't get from a video camera (but you could get from a 
computer running a sophisticated AI). 
  
  
Perception of the moving image from a given perspective 
by the brain might take place in the following way : 
  
1) FIRSTNESS (The eye). The initial operation in processing the  
raw optical signal is reception of the sensory signal. 
  
This is necessarily done by a monad (you or me),  
because only monads see the world from a given  
perspective. 


In my opinion you are conflating intelligence and consciousness. I see two 
separate issues: 


1) The human being as an agent senses things, assigns symbols to them, compares 
them with his memories and so on. The brain tries to anticipate all possible 
futures and then choses actions that are more likely to lead to a future state 
that it prefers. This preference can be ultimately reduced to pain avoidance / 
pleasure seeking. In my view, the fundamental pain and pleasure signals have to 
be encoded some how in our DNA, and were selected to optimise our chances of 
reproduction. All this is 3p and can be emulated by a digital computer. Some of 
it already is. 


2) There is a "me" here observing the universe from my perspective. I am me and 
not you. There's a consciousness inside my body, attached to my mind (or is it 
my mind)? I suspect there's one inside other people too, but I cannot be sure. 
This is a 1p phenomena and outside the realm of science. It cannot be explained 
by MRI machines and clever algorithms - although many neuroscientists fail to 
realise it. This mystery is essentially what makes me an agnostic more than an 
atheist. If there is a god, I suspect he's me (and you). In a sense. 


You can have 1 without 2, the famous zombie. 
  
This is not a visual display, only  a 
complex sensory signal.  
  
2) SECONDNESS (the hippocampus ? the cerebellum? ).  
The next stage is intelligent processing of the 
optical signal and into a useable expreswion of 
the visual image.  
  
(From the monadology, we find that each monad  
(you or me) does not  perceive the world directly,  
but is given such a perception by the supreme monad  
(the One, or God). This supreme monad contains  
the ability to intelligently construct the visual image 
from the optical nerve signal)  
  
3) THIRDNESS (cerebrum ?) Knowing this visual expresson 
by the individual monad according to its individual perspective.  
This perspective is somehow coordinated with motor muscles (left/right, 
etc.), but I question that this is an actual 2D or 3D "display," 
such as in the videoclips. (The videoclips are another matter 
as they are artificialy constructed.) 


I agree with you, but maybe videoclips can still be created from there. If the 
neural network contains a piece of information A, and this information can be 
represented by image B, there has to be a function f: A -> B. Of course finding 
this function (and/or computing it) might be incredibly hard. 
  
  
If there is an actual or simulated display then we are 
faced with Dennett's problem: the infinite regress of  
spectators, spectators of spectator, etc. 


Ok, but here we're back to 1p. 
  
  
But if there is no display, we do not need an observer self, 
and are possibly ending up with Michael Dennett's materialist  
concept of the self. This might be called epi-phenominalism. 
The self is simply an expression of the brain. 


I don't believe it is just an expression of the brain (I suspect you don't 
either), but part of the reason why I don't believe is 1p, so I cannot 
communicate it (can I?). I don't know. I tried at dinner parties and got funny 
looks. 
  
  
I do not at present know the answer. 
  
  
  
  
[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
12/19/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
  
----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Roger Clough  
Receiver: Roger Clough  
Time: 2012-12-19, 07:45:31 
Subject: On those remarkable videoclips of visual perception 


Hi Telmo, 
  
Those images in  the videoclips, while still remarkable,  
might have  beer constructed simply by monitoring, 
just as one might from a video camera, the MRI signals  
in the optical nerve as a function of time, and displaying  
them as a raster pattern, which turns the time voltage signal 
artificially into a timespace signal.  
  
Obviously the brain achieves the same result, but 
I find it hard to believe that it convergts the time signal 
into a timespace signal using a raster pattern display. 

  
  
[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
12/19/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
  
----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Roger Clough  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-12-18, 10:53:11 
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: I am my memory, which is provided by my 1p. 


Hi Telmo Menezes  
  
Thank you so much ! What an achievement ! 
Hard to believe.  
  
  
[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
12/18/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
  
----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Telmo Menezes  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-12-18, 03:34:31 
Subject: Re: Re: Re: I am my memory, which is provided by my 1p. 


Hi Roger, 



Here it is: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nsjDnYxJ0bo 



On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Roger Clough  wrote: 

Hi Telmo Menezes  
It would be good if they showed a video clip. 
[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
12/17/2012  
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 
----- Receiving the following content -----  
From: Telmo Menezes  
Receiver: everything-list  
Time: 2012-12-17, 11:12:16 
Subject: Re: Re: I am my memory, which is provided by my 1p. 


Hi again Roger,  


It's a bit better than that. A machine learning algorithm is trained to decode 
neural activation signals. The training is performed by showing the subject 
known images, and letting the algorithm learn how their neural activity maps to 
these images. 


The real magic happens when you show them new stuff, that the algorithm wasn't 
trained for. To me, the most impressive stuff here is when it fails. If you pay 
attention to the videos, you will see the algorithm decoding different (but 
similar images) from what the one being shown to the subject. For example, when 
faces are shown, different faces are decoded and then start correcting. My 
speculation is that we are actually seing visual memories conjured by the brain 
in its pattern matching attempts. My favorite is the ink blot exploding, where 
you can see the brain anticipating the explosion, so you get to see a visual of 
the subject imagining a likely future state. 



On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 4:24 PM, Roger Clough  wrote: 

Hi Telmo Menezes 

I think that is a misleading article. If it's fMRI, you 
don't see the riginal video clip as an eye would see it, 
you see an image of brain activity. 


[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net] 
12/17/2012 
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen 

----- Receiving the following content ----- 
From: Telmo Menezes 
Receiver: everything-list 
Time: 2012-12-11, 11:04:13 
Subject: Re: I am my memory, which is provided by my 1p. 






My 
memory is the identity of my 1p and is what my 1p sees. 

This is perhaps the most serioous problem of comp. 



Frankly .... I can understand people not convinced that a computer can have a 
quale associated to the memory, but memory and personal memory does not pose 
any problem in computers. Then I have explained why they have a quale too. 




This is not even theoretical anymore. Here's a rather compelling example of 
visual information in human brains being uploaded into a computer: 


http://gizmodo.com/5843117/scientists-reconstruct-video-clips-from-brain-activity?
 
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