On Thursday, January 3, 2013 6:06:42 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote:
> Hi Craig Weinberg   
> It doesn't matter whether you have good or bad intentions. 
> The law and God judge us by what we do. You do the crime, 
> you do the time. 

I'll let the Bible speak for itself, if that is the God you are talking 


The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good 
conscience and a sincere faith. 

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this 
craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves 
with many pangs. "

Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one 
will see the Lord. 

While evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and 
being deceived. 

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is 
just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if 
there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about 
these things. 

Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will. 
The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of 
the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely but 
thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only that in every 
way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I 
rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice, 

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own 
doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may 

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for 
yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be 

You sin, you go to Hell. 

If you repent, you go to Heaven.

> Personally, I believe 
> that the "eternal torture" of Hell is not to be able to feel God's 
> love and forgiveness. That would be Hell to a Jesus. He 
> refers to being tossed out and undergoing a "weeping and 
> gnashing of teeth".  

> Hindus and Buddhists believe in reincarnation, which from 
> what we observe, is not always a pleasant life. 

Personally I believe that Hell and Heaven are metaphors which extrapolate 
the ordinary high and low moods of human consciousness to a 
super-significance. God is a metaphor in the exact same way - an algebraic 
concept of X = Infinite proprietary superlatives. If you are in a world of 
competing polytheistic deities, each the representation of a personal 
superlative or sphere of influence (God of war, Goddess of beauty, etc), 
then the invention of a supreme ultimate deity who trumps all others in all 
categories is an excellent political strategy. It's a convenient way to 
consolidate allegiance and direct everyone's personal insecurities to a 
mass psychology solution.


> [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net <javascript:>] 
> 1/3/2013   
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen 
> ----- Receiving the following content -----   
> From: Craig Weinberg   
> Receiver: everything-list   
> Time: 2013-01-02, 20:24:14 
> Subject: Re: The evolution of good and evil 
> On Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:21:27 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: 
> On 1/2/2013 2:24 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:   
> That really has nothing to do with Evil though, except in sloppy 
> reasoning. True Evil is about intentionally initiating social harm. Getting 
> smallpox is not evil, it is just unfortunate. Giving someone blankets known 
> to be infected with smallp 
> On the contrary it is sloppy ethics to confine 'evil' to intentional 
> social harm.  First, it implies that socially bad is bad simpliciter, but 
> values are ultimately personal values. 
> Speaking of sloppy. I'm not sure what that was intended to say.  Without 
> some explanation of why you say that evil is other than intentional social 
> harm, it sounds like you are just saying that you disagree. 
>   Second, it implies that as soon as we find a physical cause (he was 
> drunk, he had YY chromosmes, his father beat him) for a behavior it's not 
> longer evil.   
> It implies that only to those who think that personal intention is not a 
> physical cause in its own right. Just because someone was drunk when they 
> commit an evil act doesn't mean that it wasn't an evil act. 
> But all behavior has a physical cause.   
> All physics is an experiential effect. 
> So I'm ok with just dropping the term 'evil' and just referring to 
> good/bad for individuals and good/bad for society as derivative.  But I 
> think it's a hangover from theodicy to refer to human actions as evil but 
> not natural events - it's part of the idea that humans are apart from 
> nature. 
> I agree that dropping the term 'evil' as a formal term is the more 
> enlightened way to go. I don't have a problem with it as an informal 
> hyperbole that is reserved for intentionally cruel behavior though. I think 
> that we can separate intentional human cruelty as a class of attitudes and 
> effects unlike any other, though I would not apply any supernatural 
> significance.   
> I would say that there is a hidden hypocrisy in allowing no expectation of 
> self control on the part of individuals while taking it for granted that 
> exactly that kind of moral control is  to be expected from a law enforcing 
> society composed of those same individuals. If it's not evil for an axe 
> murderer to execute people at random, how can it be evil for a society to 
> call that person evil and seek to execute them? If we want to be humane 
> toward outlaws that's fine, but I don't think that we should do it out of 
> the assumption that human behaviors are under no more human control than 
> storms and earthquakes.   
> Craig 
> Brent 
> Ethics is, at bottom, the art of recommending to others the 
> self-sacrifice necessary to cooperate with ourselves. 
>       --- Bertrand Russell 
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