On Friday, January 4, 2013 3:09:11 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote:
>
>  Hi Craig Weinberg 
>  
> You're right, I was thinking as a jew might, but if orgot that jesus 
> introduced the
> concept of thought crimes (intentions).  
>


" I was thinking as a jew might,"

lol

  
> [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] <javascript:>
> 1/4/2013 
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
>
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> *From:* Craig Weinberg <javascript:> 
> *Receiver:* everything-list <javascript:> 
> *Time:* 2013-01-03, 12:05:31
> *Subject:* Re: Re: What Hell is like
>
>  
>
> On Thursday, January 3, 2013 9:11:29 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: 
>>
>>  Hi Craig Weinberg 
>>  
>> All of your quotes are very good advice.
>> What's your point ?
>>
>
> My point is that any worthwhile religion is very much concerned with 
> intentions and the content of your 'heart', at least as much as whether you 
> violate the letter of any particular religious law. You were saying that 
> all that matters is whether you sinned or not, whether you break the law or 
> not, and that your good or evil intentions don't matter. I am saying that 
> intention is a defining aspect of any honest conception of good and evil.
>  
>
>>   
>>  
>> [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]
>> 1/3/2013 
>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
>>
>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
>> *From:* Craig Weinberg 
>> *Receiver:* everything-list 
>> *Time:* 2013-01-03, 08:47:13
>> *Subject:* Re: What Hell is like
>>
>>  
>>
>> On Thursday, January 3, 2013 6:06:42 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote: 
>>>
>>> Hi Craig Weinberg   
>>>
>>> It doesn't matter whether you have good or bad intentions. 
>>> The law and God judge us by what we do. You do the crime, 
>>> you do the time. 
>>
>>
>> I'll let the Bible speak for itself, if that is the God you are talking 
>> about:
>>
>> Timothy 
>> 1:5<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+1%3A5&version=ESV> 
>>  
>>
>>
>> The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good 
>> conscience and a sincere faith. 
>>  Timothy 
>> 6:10<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Timothy+6%3A10&version=ESV>
>>   
>>
>> "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through 
>> this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced 
>> themselves with many pangs. "
>> Hebrews 
>> 12:14<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+12%3A14&version=ESV>
>>   
>>
>>
>> Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one 
>> will see the Lord. 
>> Timothy 
>> 3:13<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+3%3A13&version=ESV>
>>   
>>
>>
>> While evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving 
>> and being deceived. 
>> Philippians 
>> 4:8<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+4%3A8&version=ESV>
>>  
>>
>> Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is 
>> just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if 
>> there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about 
>> these things. 
>> Philippians 
>> 1:15-18<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+1%3A15-18&version=ESV>
>>   
>>
>>
>> Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good 
>> will. The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the 
>> defense of the gospel. The former proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not 
>> sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment. What then? Only 
>> that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, 
>> and in that I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice, 
>> Ephesians 
>> 2:8-9<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A8-9&version=ESV>
>>   
>>
>>
>> For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own 
>> doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may 
>> boast. 
>> Romans 
>> 2:5<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+2%3A5&version=ESV>  
>>
>>
>> But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath 
>> for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be 
>> revealed. 
>>
>>
>> You sin, you go to Hell. 
>>
>>
>> If you repent, you go to Heaven.
>>  
>>
>>> Personally, I believe 
>>> that the "eternal torture" of Hell is not to be able to feel God's 
>>> love and forgiveness. That would be Hell to a Jesus. He 
>>> refers to being tossed out and undergoing a "weeping and 
>>> gnashing of teeth".  
>>>
>>
>>> Hindus and Buddhists believe in reincarnation, which from 
>>> what we observe, is not always a pleasant life. 
>>>
>>
>> Personally I believe that Hell and Heaven are metaphors which extrapolate 
>> the ordinary high and low moods of human consciousness to a 
>> super-significance. God is a metaphor in the exact same way - an algebraic 
>> concept of X = Infinite proprietary superlatives. If you are in a world of 
>> competing polytheistic deities, each the representation of a personal 
>> superlative or sphere of influence (God of war, Goddess of beauty, etc), 
>> then the invention of a supreme ultimate deity who trumps all others in all 
>> categories is an excellent political strategy. It's a convenient way to 
>> consolidate allegiance and direct everyone's personal insecurities to a 
>> mass psychology solution.
>>
>>   
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net] 
>>> 1/3/2013   
>>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen 
>>> ----- Receiving the following content -----   
>>> From: Craig Weinberg   
>>> Receiver: everything-list   
>>> Time: 2013-01-02, 20:24:14 
>>> Subject: Re: The evolution of good and evil 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:21:27 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: 
>>> On 1/2/2013 2:24 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:   
>>> That really has nothing to do with Evil though, except in sloppy 
>>> reasoning. True Evil is about intentionally initiating social harm. Getting 
>>> smallpox is not evil, it is just unfortunate. Giving someone blankets known 
>>> to be infected with smallp 
>>>
>>> On the contrary it is sloppy ethics to confine 'evil' to intentional 
>>> social harm.  First, it implies that socially bad is bad simpliciter, but 
>>> values are ultimately personal values. 
>>>
>>> Speaking of sloppy. I'm not sure what that was intended to say.  Without 
>>> some explanation of why you say that evil is other than intentional social 
>>> harm, it sounds like you are just saying that you disagree. 
>>>   
>>>
>>>   Second, it implies that as soon as we find a physical cause (he was 
>>> drunk, he had YY chromosmes, his father beat him) for a behavior it's not 
>>> longer evil.   
>>>
>>> It implies that only to those who think that personal intention is not a 
>>> physical cause in its own right. Just because someone was drunk when they 
>>> commit an evil act doesn't mean that it wasn't an evil act. 
>>>
>>>   
>>> But all behavior has a physical cause.   
>>>
>>> All physics is an experiential effect. 
>>>   
>>> So I'm ok with just dropping the term 'evil' and just referring to 
>>> good/bad for individuals and good/bad for society as derivative.  But I 
>>> think it's a hangover from theodicy to refer to human actions as evil but 
>>> not natural events - it's part of the idea that humans are apart from 
>>> nature. 
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree that dropping the term 'evil' as a formal term is the more 
>>> enlightened way to go. I don't have a problem with it as an informal 
>>> hyperbole that is reserved for intentionally cruel behavior though. I think 
>>> that we can separate intentional human cruelty as a class of attitudes and 
>>> effects unlike any other, though I would not apply any supernatural 
>>> significance.   
>>>
>>> I would say that there is a hidden hypocrisy in allowing no expectation 
>>> of self control on the part of individuals while taking it for granted that 
>>> exactly that kind of moral control is  to be expected from a law enforcing 
>>> society composed of those same individuals. If it's not evil for an axe 
>>> murderer to execute people at random, how can it be evil for a society to 
>>> call that person evil and seek to execute them? If we want to be humane 
>>> toward outlaws that's fine, but I don't think that we should do it out of 
>>> the assumption that human behaviors are under no more human control than 
>>> storms and earthquakes.   
>>>
>>> Craig 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brent 
>>> Ethics is, at bottom, the art of recommending to others the 
>>> self-sacrifice necessary to cooperate with ourselves. 
>>>       --- Bertrand Russell 
>>>
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