Dear John,
On 09 Jan 2013, at 17:30, John Mikes wrote:
you know we agree (mostly), you wrote lately that you are "more"
agnostic than myself - what I doubt since your "religion" includes
numbers and math(logic) and mine not.
My "religion" (I prefer to say: my favorite working hypothesis) is
that "we are machine" (to be short). But this cannot even be explained
if you doubt things like 43 is prime, etc.
Then we can try refuting that theory, especially that I expain that
the physical laws are theorems in that theory.
I will be franc John, I have no clue by what you mean when you say
that numbers are not part of your religion.
We agree on the deep, I think. We disagree on the amount of agreement
between us. I think it is greater than you think :)
What I take for "granted" is our limited capability to learn them
all about the infinite complexity of which we formulate a 'model' of
the (already) knowable - as adjusted to our present level mind-
function.
Terms like "limited", "capacity" are more complex to me than 2+2=4. I
can hardly imagine an explanation of "limited capacity" which does not
rely on natural numbers relations or something "Turing equivalent".
There is 'evidence' of a steady growing of such knowledge over the
millennia of (human) enlightenment. There is N O
evidence about it's qualia - i.e. that we CAN comprehend any facet
of that infinite complexity. We think in 'facts' and their
factual(?) relations what may be absolutely false.
I am not an atheist: I just do not fall for hearsay. I say it in all
honesty that "I dunno". Nor am I a materialist - consider the
physical world (and conventional sciences) figments how our human
mind (??) explains the not-understood phenomena we get a glimps of.
You do it by math: an unexplained arithmetics, I do not do it at all.
It is nice to recognize our ignorance, which can only be abyssal
(probably so with comp). But this is not a reason to try theories, as
this is the only chance to be shown wrong, and to learn a little bit.
If you don't do it at all, which is quite wise, you get the empty
theory, which is irrefutable, but explains too much. I am just
*trying* to get an idea of what is going on.
The best for the New Year
?
I thought you were not believing in arithmetic :)
Best wishes,
Bruno
John M
On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:18, Roger Clough wrote:
According to Plato, all love, all truth, and all beauty comes from
the One
(ie God). That being the case, when I experience love, truth or
beauty, I
sense God's presence.
I can be OK with this, but this will not convince an atheist, who
will tell you that if "beauty" is god, then he believes in God, but
that is not the God he is talking about when declaring himself an
atheist.
An atheist is just someone who does not believe in Santa Claus.
Really.
Some people suggests that comp is two times more atheistic than
atheism, because with comp, not only the literal Christian God does
not exist, but the myth or a primitive material universe has to be
abandoned too. I disagree because comp invite us firmly to come back
to the scientific notion of God (transcendental truth at the root of
everything, faith in reincarnation).
Science is always based on a religion. Scientist who pretend to have
no religion are person who take so much their religion for granted
that they cannot doubt it, and so becomes pseudo-priest of some
sort. It is often the case with the (weak) materialist (as almost
all people are still today).
Bruno
[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
1/9/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
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