On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 09 Jan 2013, at 17:03, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:26, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from? >> >> >> I am not quite sure, but it comes probably from the consistency of >> inconsistency (that is: Gödel's second incompleteness theorem). >> > > Doesn't the second incompleteness theorem imply that all knowable truths > are local and that absolute truth is unrecognisable? > > > Why? > I don't think so. Gödel's incompleteness relies on the absoluteness of the > elementary arithmetical truth. It only entails that all machine cannot know > the whole thing, and not even give it a name. > "Local" was a poor choice of words. A better term for what I meant would be "subjective to the machine". Taking the point of view of the machine: if it can't know certain truths about itself, how can it know any absolute truth? Apart from algebra, since rejecting it would invalidate Godel's theorem? > This can be made more precise in "model theory", or "set theory" where we > can define "absolute" and "relative". > > > > That makes sense with my empirical understanding of realty: there are > things that I find beautiful and others find ugly. Hate groups feel that > they just have a correct understanding of reality, and so on. > > > I am OK with this, except on elementary arithmetic. You need this just to > define "formalism", "machine", etc. But even such kind of truth cannot be > communicate as such, unless we first agree on some axioms, and on what > axioms are. > > > > > > >> Actually it comes from the fact that Bf (inconsistency) gives an >> evolutionary advantage. Like the true Dt, Bf can be used to prove correct >> arithmetical propositions, to shorten the proofs of non trivial >> propositions, etc. I am able to conceive, some day, that all axioms of >> infinity are of this type (but this is a strong statement). >> >> So basically the hate, the falsehood and the ugliness comes from their >> local evolutionary advantage. A bit like robbing a bank can be justified, >> when the goal is to make money locally and quickly. A bit like when the >> "first animal" decided to feed on a vegetal, which is a form of molecules >> stealing, at some level. Then other animals steal the molecules of those >> vegetarians, and so on. This has generated the evolutionary heuristic: to >> eat or to be eaten, and sometimes that hurts. >> > > Ok - at the evolutionary level of abstraction. > > > Well, OK. It still hurts, and the hurting feeling seems to be something > absolute. We cannot doubt a feeling of headache, even if we can doubt the > primary existence of the head. > > Bruno > > > > > >> >> In the main line ... >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Roger Clough <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> According to Plato, all love, all truth, and all beauty comes from the >>> One >>> (ie God). That being the case, when I experience love, truth or beauty, I >>> sense God's presence. >>> >>> >>> [Roger Clough], [[email protected]] >>> 1/9/2013 >>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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