On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>
> On 09 Jan 2013, at 17:03, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:26, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>>
>>  Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from?
>>
>>
>> I am not quite sure, but it comes probably from the consistency of
>> inconsistency (that is: Gödel's second incompleteness theorem).
>>
>
> Doesn't the second incompleteness theorem imply that all knowable truths
> are local and that absolute truth is unrecognisable?
>
>
> Why?
> I don't think so. Gödel's incompleteness relies on the absoluteness of the
> elementary arithmetical truth. It only entails that all machine cannot know
> the whole thing, and not even give it a name.
>

"Local" was a poor choice of words. A better term for what I meant would be
"subjective to the machine". Taking the point of view of the machine: if it
can't know certain truths about itself, how can it know any absolute truth?
Apart from algebra, since rejecting it would invalidate Godel's theorem?


> This can be made more precise in "model theory", or "set theory" where we
> can define "absolute" and "relative".
>
>
>
> That makes sense with my empirical understanding of realty: there are
> things that I find beautiful and others find ugly. Hate groups feel that
> they just have a correct understanding of reality, and so on.
>
>
> I am OK with this, except on elementary arithmetic. You need this just to
> define "formalism", "machine", etc. But even such kind of truth cannot be
> communicate as such, unless we first agree on some axioms, and on what
> axioms are.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>  Actually it comes from the fact that Bf (inconsistency) gives an
>> evolutionary advantage. Like the true Dt, Bf can be used to prove correct
>> arithmetical propositions, to shorten the proofs of non trivial
>> propositions, etc. I am able to conceive, some day, that all axioms of
>> infinity are of this type (but this is a strong statement).
>>
>> So basically the hate, the falsehood and the ugliness comes from their
>> local evolutionary advantage. A bit like robbing a bank can be justified,
>> when the goal is to make money locally and quickly. A bit like when the
>> "first animal" decided to feed on a vegetal, which is a form of molecules
>> stealing, at some level. Then other animals steal the molecules of those
>> vegetarians, and so on. This has generated the evolutionary heuristic: to
>> eat or to be eaten, and sometimes that hurts.
>>
>
> Ok - at the evolutionary level of abstraction.
>
>
> Well, OK. It still hurts, and the hurting feeling seems to be something
> absolute. We cannot doubt a feeling of headache, even if we can doubt the
> primary existence of the head.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> In the main line ...
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> According to Plato, all love, all truth, and all beauty comes from the
>>> One
>>> (ie God). That being the case, when I experience love, truth or beauty, I
>>> sense God's presence.
>>>
>>>
>>> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
>>> 1/9/2013
>>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
>>>
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>>  http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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>>
>>
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