On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 8:35 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>
> On 10 Jan 2013, at 23:05, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 6:10 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 09 Jan 2013, at 17:03, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 4:29 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 09 Jan 2013, at 13:26, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>>>
>>>  Where does hate, falsehood and ugliness come from?
>>>
>>>
>>> I am not quite sure, but it comes probably from the consistency of
>>> inconsistency (that is: Gödel's second incompleteness theorem).
>>>
>>
>> Doesn't the second incompleteness theorem imply that all knowable truths
>> are local and that absolute truth is unrecognisable?
>>
>>
>> Why?
>> I don't think so. Gödel's incompleteness relies on the absoluteness of
>> the elementary arithmetical truth. It only entails that all machine cannot
>> know the whole thing, and not even give it a name.
>>
>
> "Local" was a poor choice of words. A better term for what I meant would
> be "subjective to the machine". Taking the point of view of the machine: if
> it can't know certain truths about itself, how can it know any absolute
> truth?
>
>
> By proving it. (and praying for betting correct, not having confuse a +
> with a *, etc.)
>

But proving only really works from outside the system. If we are a machine
inside the system, how can we be sure that we are not making a systematic
mistake that we are not able to recognise.


>
> I assume that you are willing to agree that "17 is prime" is an example of
> an "absolute truth".
>

Yes.


>
>
>
>
>
> Apart from algebra, since rejecting it would invalidate Godel's theorem?
>
>
> Gödel's theorem is a theorem in elementary arithmetic.
> It is both a meta-theorem *on* a formal arithmetic, and a theorem *in*
> that formal arithmetic.
> I might miss your question perhaps. Please say so if it is the case.
>

Argh, sorry. Of course.
So if we are a machine inside the system, imagine there's something about
us we can't know that makes use commit fundamental mistakes. Is it possible
that arithmetics only makes sense to us because of that flaw?


>
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>> This can be made more precise in "model theory", or "set theory" where we
>> can define "absolute" and "relative".
>>
>>
>>
>> That makes sense with my empirical understanding of realty: there are
>> things that I find beautiful and others find ugly. Hate groups feel that
>> they just have a correct understanding of reality, and so on.
>>
>>
>> I am OK with this, except on elementary arithmetic. You need this just to
>> define "formalism", "machine", etc. But even such kind of truth cannot be
>> communicate as such, unless we first agree on some axioms, and on what
>> axioms are.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>  Actually it comes from the fact that Bf (inconsistency) gives an
>>> evolutionary advantage. Like the true Dt, Bf can be used to prove correct
>>> arithmetical propositions, to shorten the proofs of non trivial
>>> propositions, etc. I am able to conceive, some day, that all axioms of
>>> infinity are of this type (but this is a strong statement).
>>>
>>> So basically the hate, the falsehood and the ugliness comes from their
>>> local evolutionary advantage. A bit like robbing a bank can be justified,
>>> when the goal is to make money locally and quickly. A bit like when the
>>> "first animal" decided to feed on a vegetal, which is a form of molecules
>>> stealing, at some level. Then other animals steal the molecules of those
>>> vegetarians, and so on. This has generated the evolutionary heuristic: to
>>> eat or to be eaten, and sometimes that hurts.
>>>
>>
>> Ok - at the evolutionary level of abstraction.
>>
>>
>> Well, OK. It still hurts, and the hurting feeling seems to be something
>> absolute. We cannot doubt a feeling of headache, even if we can doubt the
>> primary existence of the head.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> In the main line ...
>>>
>>> Bruno
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> According to Plato, all love, all truth, and all beauty comes from the
>>>> One
>>>> (ie God). That being the case, when I experience love, truth or beauty,
>>>> I
>>>> sense God's presence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
>>>> 1/9/2013
>>>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
>>>>
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>>>  http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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