On Saturday, January 12, 2013 10:33:11 AM UTC-5, yanniru wrote:
>
> EM waves and fields clearly exist in spacetime. 


How do you know that they don't exist in matter?
 

> Yet I would classify 
> them along with quantum waves as part of the quantum mind and 
> nonphysical. 
>

I don't see anything as nonphysical, only public and private ranges of 
physics.
 

> The photon particle and quantum particles appear to bridge the gap 
> between the physical and the mind in a mind/body duality or as Roger 
> puts it, a dual aspect theory. 
>

That's because they don't consider that matter is inherently sensitive. 
Once you consider that possibility, there is no need to imagine phantom 
particles and waves in a vacuum full of 'energy'...it's all Emperor's New 
Clothes stuff that keeps coming back again and again - aether, phlogiston, 
prana, chi, radiation, élan vital. It's screamingly obvious to me now that 
these are all the same misapplication of private range physics to public 
range experience because we cannot accept that private experience is real 
or that public realism is an experience.


> What I picture is that if everything happens instantly in the quantum 
> mind, quantum and EM waves can collapse instantly into something the 
> size of particles so that they may interact with other particles at 
> the Planck scale. 
>

None of it is real. EM waves are feelings that matter shares with matter. 
Nothing collapses, Planck scale is a mathematical abstraction, and quantum 
mind is just plain old ordinary sense.
 

>
> I think this is a necessary step, a collapse of waves to a particle 
> size, even for MWI, in order to obtain multiple physical worlds. So it 
> does not rule out MWI. 
>

A universe based on the foundation of perceptual participation (sense) 
makes MWI unlikely and irrelevant.
 

>
> But if waves can collapse instantly in the quantum mind, then the 
> Feynman method of cancelling the infinities of Quantum 
> Electrodynamics, equivalent to Cramer's Transactional Analysis, can be 
> used to obtain a single world. The anti-particles that come back 
> instantly from the future, so to speak, may cancel out all the extra 
> worlds of MWI. 
>
> Now it took some intelligence for Feynman to make his method work. So 
> I imagine that the quantum mind must possess some form of 
> consciousness and intelligence to choose which anti-particles are 
> needed to cancel all the quantum states but one in any 
> particle-particle interaction. I suspect that the quantum mind in each 
> of us possesses similar consciousness. 
>
> Moreover, I have come to accept the notion of a few consciousness 
> investigators that consciousness is the energy of the quantum mind. I 
> base my acceptance on how I focus my own consciousness to accomplish 
> almost anything. It's like just putting out the energy of 
> consciousness helps thoughts to emerge. 


Consciousness isn't an energy, energy is a model of sensory-motor 
experience with the personal orientation stripped out of it. Useful, but 
not concretely real - just another name for the presumed external universal 
resource like élan vital.
 

> Intelligence and free will may 
> differ from consciousness but such intention can guide consciousness. 
> Therefore intelligence and free will may have a deeper source. 
>

The more sense elaborates within itself, fragments into layers upon layers 
of embodied feelings, the more the quality is enriched. Consciousness 
encapsulates many awarenesses, awareness encapsulates feelings, feeling 
encapsulates perceptions, perception encapsulates sensations, etc. It is 
the elaboration of sense which allows experiences to become intelligent, 
and with intelligence, the higher quality of sense educates the 
motivations, expands the experience of time so that instincts can be 
interrupted and replaced by more refined considerations. This virtuous 
cycle between intelligence and free will is inevitable, but it is will 
beneath intelligence which integrates information and utilizes it.

Craig

Richard 
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 7:01 AM, Telmo Menezes 
> <te...@telmomenezes.com<javascript:>> 
> wrote: 
> > Hi Roger, 
> > 
> > How can you have a wave without some notion of spatial/temporal 
> dimensions? 
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Roger Clough 
> > <rcl...@verizon.net<javascript:>> 
> wrote: 
> >> 
> >> Hi everything-list, 
> >> 
> >> I don't believe that Descartes would accept the MWI. 
> >> Here's why: 
> >> 
> >> I think that the ManyWorldsInterpretation of QM is incorrect, 
> >> due to the mistaken notion (IMHO) that quantum waves 
> >> are physical waves, so that everything is physical and materialistic. 
> >> 
> >> This seems to deny "quantum weirdness" observed 
> >> in the two-slit experiment. Seemingly if both the wave 
> >> and the photon are physical, there should be nothing weird 
> >> happening. 
> >> 
> >> My own view is that the weirdness arises because the 
> >> waves and the photons are residents of two completely 
> >> different but interpenetrating worlds, where: 
> >> 
> >> 1) the photon is a resident of the physical world, 
> >> where by physical I mean (along with Descartes) 
> >> "extended in space", 
> >> 
> >> 2) the quantum wave in nonphysical, being a resident of 
> >> the nonphysical world (the world of mind), which has no 
> >> extension in space. 
> >> 
> >> Under these conditions, there is no need 
> >> to create an additional physical world, since each 
> >> can exist as aspects of the the same world, 
> >> one moving in spactime and being physical, the other, like 
> >> mind, moving simulataneously in the nonphysical world 
> >> beyond spacetime. 
> >> 
> >> [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net <javascript:>] 
> >> 1/12/2013 
> >> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen 
> >> 
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