On 13 Jan 2013, at 05:34, Richard Ruquist wrote:

Craig,
You sound like the ultimate flower girl, all touchy and feelie.
However, yo might very well be right.
Richard

Craig is often right, or well inspired, from the comp perspective.
But he is not valid when thinking that what he says needs non-comp, alas.

Bruno




On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote:


On Saturday, January 12, 2013 10:33:11 AM UTC-5, yanniru wrote:

EM waves and fields clearly exist in spacetime.


How do you know that they don't exist in matter?


Yet I would classify
them along with quantum waves as part of the quantum mind and
nonphysical.


I don't see anything as nonphysical, only public and private ranges of
physics.


The photon particle and quantum particles appear to bridge the gap
between the physical and the mind in a mind/body duality or as Roger
puts it, a dual aspect theory.


That's because they don't consider that matter is inherently sensitive. Once you consider that possibility, there is no need to imagine phantom particles and waves in a vacuum full of 'energy'...it's all Emperor's New Clothes stuff that keeps coming back again and again - aether, phlogiston, prana, chi, radiation, élan vital. It's screamingly obvious to me now that these are all the same misapplication of private range physics to public range experience because we cannot accept that private experience is real or that
public realism is an experience.


What I picture is that if everything happens instantly in the quantum
mind, quantum and EM waves can collapse instantly into something the
size of particles so that they may interact with other particles at
the Planck scale.


None of it is real. EM waves are feelings that matter shares with matter. Nothing collapses, Planck scale is a mathematical abstraction, and quantum
mind is just plain old ordinary sense.



I think this is a necessary step, a collapse of waves to a particle
size, even for MWI, in order to obtain multiple physical worlds. So it
does not rule out MWI.


A universe based on the foundation of perceptual participation (sense) makes
MWI unlikely and irrelevant.



But if waves can collapse instantly in the quantum mind, then the
Feynman method of cancelling the infinities of Quantum
Electrodynamics, equivalent to Cramer's Transactional Analysis, can be
used to obtain a single world. The anti-particles that come back
instantly from the future, so to speak, may cancel out all the extra
worlds of MWI.

Now it took some intelligence for Feynman to make his method work. So
I imagine that the quantum mind must possess some form of
consciousness and intelligence to choose which anti-particles are
needed to cancel all the quantum states but one in any
particle-particle interaction. I suspect that the quantum mind in each
of us possesses similar consciousness.

Moreover, I have come to accept the notion of a few consciousness
investigators that consciousness is the energy of the quantum mind. I
base my acceptance on how I focus my own consciousness to accomplish
almost anything. It's like just putting out the energy of
consciousness helps thoughts to emerge.


Consciousness isn't an energy, energy is a model of sensory-motor experience with the personal orientation stripped out of it. Useful, but not concretely real - just another name for the presumed external universal resource like
élan vital.


Intelligence and free will may
differ from consciousness but such intention can guide consciousness.
Therefore intelligence and free will may have a deeper source.


The more sense elaborates within itself, fragments into layers upon layers
of embodied feelings, the more the quality is enriched. Consciousness
encapsulates many awarenesses, awareness encapsulates feelings, feeling encapsulates perceptions, perception encapsulates sensations, etc. It is the elaboration of sense which allows experiences to become intelligent, and with intelligence, the higher quality of sense educates the motivations, expands the experience of time so that instincts can be interrupted and
replaced by more refined considerations. This virtuous cycle between
intelligence and free will is inevitable, but it is will beneath
intelligence which integrates information and utilizes it.

Craig

Richard


On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 7:01 AM, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
wrote:
Hi Roger,

How can you have a wave without some notion of spatial/temporal
dimensions?


On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Roger Clough <rcl...@verizon.net>
wrote:

Hi everything-list,

I don't believe that Descartes would accept the MWI.
Here's why:

I think that the ManyWorldsInterpretation of QM is incorrect,
due to the mistaken notion (IMHO) that quantum waves
are physical waves, so that everything is physical and materialistic.

This seems to deny "quantum weirdness" observed
in the two-slit experiment. Seemingly if both the wave
and the photon are physical, there should be nothing weird
happening.

My own view is that the weirdness arises because the
waves and the photons are residents of two completely
different but interpenetrating worlds, where:

1) the photon is a resident of the physical world,
where by physical I mean (along with Descartes)
"extended in space",

2) the quantum wave in nonphysical, being a resident of
the nonphysical world (the world of mind), which has no
extension in space.

Under these conditions, there is no need
to create an additional physical world, since each
can exist as aspects of the the same world,
one moving in spactime and being physical, the other, like
mind, moving simulataneously in the nonphysical world
beyond spacetime.

[Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]
1/12/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen

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