On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 11:39 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>
> On 13 Jan 2013, at 05:34, Richard Ruquist wrote:
>
>> Craig,
>> You sound like the ultimate flower girl, all touchy and feelie.
>> However, yo might very well be right.
>> Richard
>
>
> Craig is often right, or well inspired, from the comp perspective.
> But he is not valid when thinking that what he says needs non-comp, alas.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, January 12, 2013 10:33:11 AM UTC-5, yanniru wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> EM waves and fields clearly exist in spacetime.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How do you know that they don't exist in matter?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yet I would classify
>>>> them along with quantum waves as part of the quantum mind and
>>>> nonphysical.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't see anything as nonphysical, only public and private ranges of
>>> physics.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The photon particle and quantum particles appear to bridge the gap
>>>> between the physical and the mind in a mind/body duality or as Roger
>>>> puts it, a dual aspect theory.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's because they don't consider that matter is inherently sensitive.


I do. In my model of reality all matter is full of sensitive monads,
Calabi-Yau Compact Manifolds,
each perceiving all other monads instantly,
as in "indra's net of jewels" in buddhism.


>>> Once
>>> you consider that possibility, there is no need to imagine phantom
>>> particles
>>> and waves in a vacuum full of 'energy'...it's all Emperor's New Clothes
>>> stuff that keeps coming back again and again - aether, phlogiston, prana,
>>> chi, radiation, élan vital. It's screamingly obvious to me now that these
>>> are all the same misapplication of private range physics to public range
>>> experience because we cannot accept that private experience is real or
>>> that
>>> public realism is an experience.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> What I picture is that if everything happens instantly in the quantum
>>>> mind, quantum and EM waves can collapse instantly into something the
>>>> size of particles so that they may interact with other particles at
>>>> the Planck scale.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> None of it is real. EM waves are feelings that matter shares with matter.
>>> Nothing collapses, Planck scale is a mathematical abstraction, and
>>> quantum
>>> mind is just plain old ordinary sense.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think this is a necessary step, a collapse of waves to a particle
>>>> size, even for MWI, in order to obtain multiple physical worlds. So it
>>>> does not rule out MWI.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A universe based on the foundation of perceptual participation (sense)
>>> makes
>>> MWI unlikely and irrelevant.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But if waves can collapse instantly in the quantum mind, then the
>>>> Feynman method of cancelling the infinities of Quantum
>>>> Electrodynamics, equivalent to Cramer's Transactional Analysis, can be
>>>> used to obtain a single world. The anti-particles that come back
>>>> instantly from the future, so to speak, may cancel out all the extra
>>>> worlds of MWI.
>>>>
>>>> Now it took some intelligence for Feynman to make his method work. So
>>>> I imagine that the quantum mind must possess some form of
>>>> consciousness and intelligence to choose which anti-particles are
>>>> needed to cancel all the quantum states but one in any
>>>> particle-particle interaction. I suspect that the quantum mind in each
>>>> of us possesses similar consciousness.
>>>>
>>>> Moreover, I have come to accept the notion of a few consciousness
>>>> investigators that consciousness is the energy of the quantum mind. I
>>>> base my acceptance on how I focus my own consciousness to accomplish
>>>> almost anything. It's like just putting out the energy of
>>>> consciousness helps thoughts to emerge.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Consciousness isn't an energy, energy is a model of sensory-motor
>>> experience
>>> with the personal orientation stripped out of it. Useful, but not
>>> concretely
>>> real - just another name for the presumed external universal resource
>>> like
>>> élan vital.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Intelligence and free will may
>>>> differ from consciousness but such intention can guide consciousness.
>>>> Therefore intelligence and free will may have a deeper source.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The more sense elaborates within itself, fragments into layers upon
>>> layers
>>> of embodied feelings, the more the quality is enriched. Consciousness
>>> encapsulates many awarenesses, awareness encapsulates feelings, feeling
>>> encapsulates perceptions, perception encapsulates sensations, etc. It is
>>> the
>>> elaboration of sense which allows experiences to become intelligent, and
>>> with intelligence, the higher quality of sense educates the motivations,
>>> expands the experience of time so that instincts can be interrupted and
>>> replaced by more refined considerations. This virtuous cycle between
>>> intelligence and free will is inevitable, but it is will beneath
>>> intelligence which integrates information and utilizes it.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>> Richard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 7:01 AM, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Roger,
>>>>>
>>>>> How can you have a wave without some notion of spatial/temporal
>>>>> dimensions?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Roger Clough <rcl...@verizon.net>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi everything-list,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't believe that Descartes would accept the MWI.
>>>>>> Here's why:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that the ManyWorldsInterpretation of QM is incorrect,
>>>>>> due to the mistaken notion (IMHO) that quantum waves
>>>>>> are physical waves, so that everything is physical and materialistic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This seems to deny "quantum weirdness" observed
>>>>>> in the two-slit experiment. Seemingly if both the wave
>>>>>> and the photon are physical, there should be nothing weird
>>>>>> happening.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My own view is that the weirdness arises because the
>>>>>> waves and the photons are residents of two completely
>>>>>> different but interpenetrating worlds, where:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) the photon is a resident of the physical world,
>>>>>> where by physical I mean (along with Descartes)
>>>>>> "extended in space",
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2) the quantum wave in nonphysical, being a resident of
>>>>>> the nonphysical world (the world of mind), which has no
>>>>>> extension in space.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Under these conditions, there is no need
>>>>>> to create an additional physical world, since each
>>>>>> can exist as aspects of the the same world,
>>>>>> one moving in spactime and being physical, the other, like
>>>>>> mind, moving simulataneously in the nonphysical world
>>>>>> beyond spacetime.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Roger Clough], [rcl...@verizon.net]
>>>>>> 1/12/2013
>>>>>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
>>>>>>
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>
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
>
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