On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 11:39 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > > On 13 Jan 2013, at 05:34, Richard Ruquist wrote: > >> Craig, >> You sound like the ultimate flower girl, all touchy and feelie. >> However, yo might very well be right. >> Richard > > > Craig is often right, or well inspired, from the comp perspective. > But he is not valid when thinking that what he says needs non-comp, alas. > > Bruno > > > >> >> On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 3:35 PM, Craig Weinberg <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Saturday, January 12, 2013 10:33:11 AM UTC-5, yanniru wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> EM waves and fields clearly exist in spacetime. >>> >>> >>> >>> How do you know that they don't exist in matter? >>> >>>> >>>> Yet I would classify >>>> them along with quantum waves as part of the quantum mind and >>>> nonphysical. >>> >>> >>> >>> I don't see anything as nonphysical, only public and private ranges of >>> physics. >>> >>>> >>>> The photon particle and quantum particles appear to bridge the gap >>>> between the physical and the mind in a mind/body duality or as Roger >>>> puts it, a dual aspect theory. >>> >>> >>> >>> That's because they don't consider that matter is inherently sensitive.
I do. In my model of reality all matter is full of sensitive monads, Calabi-Yau Compact Manifolds, each perceiving all other monads instantly, as in "indra's net of jewels" in buddhism. >>> Once >>> you consider that possibility, there is no need to imagine phantom >>> particles >>> and waves in a vacuum full of 'energy'...it's all Emperor's New Clothes >>> stuff that keeps coming back again and again - aether, phlogiston, prana, >>> chi, radiation, élan vital. It's screamingly obvious to me now that these >>> are all the same misapplication of private range physics to public range >>> experience because we cannot accept that private experience is real or >>> that >>> public realism is an experience. >>> >>>> >>>> What I picture is that if everything happens instantly in the quantum >>>> mind, quantum and EM waves can collapse instantly into something the >>>> size of particles so that they may interact with other particles at >>>> the Planck scale. >>> >>> >>> >>> None of it is real. EM waves are feelings that matter shares with matter. >>> Nothing collapses, Planck scale is a mathematical abstraction, and >>> quantum >>> mind is just plain old ordinary sense. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think this is a necessary step, a collapse of waves to a particle >>>> size, even for MWI, in order to obtain multiple physical worlds. So it >>>> does not rule out MWI. >>> >>> >>> >>> A universe based on the foundation of perceptual participation (sense) >>> makes >>> MWI unlikely and irrelevant. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> But if waves can collapse instantly in the quantum mind, then the >>>> Feynman method of cancelling the infinities of Quantum >>>> Electrodynamics, equivalent to Cramer's Transactional Analysis, can be >>>> used to obtain a single world. The anti-particles that come back >>>> instantly from the future, so to speak, may cancel out all the extra >>>> worlds of MWI. >>>> >>>> Now it took some intelligence for Feynman to make his method work. So >>>> I imagine that the quantum mind must possess some form of >>>> consciousness and intelligence to choose which anti-particles are >>>> needed to cancel all the quantum states but one in any >>>> particle-particle interaction. I suspect that the quantum mind in each >>>> of us possesses similar consciousness. >>>> >>>> Moreover, I have come to accept the notion of a few consciousness >>>> investigators that consciousness is the energy of the quantum mind. I >>>> base my acceptance on how I focus my own consciousness to accomplish >>>> almost anything. It's like just putting out the energy of >>>> consciousness helps thoughts to emerge. >>> >>> >>> >>> Consciousness isn't an energy, energy is a model of sensory-motor >>> experience >>> with the personal orientation stripped out of it. Useful, but not >>> concretely >>> real - just another name for the presumed external universal resource >>> like >>> élan vital. >>> >>>> >>>> Intelligence and free will may >>>> differ from consciousness but such intention can guide consciousness. >>>> Therefore intelligence and free will may have a deeper source. >>> >>> >>> >>> The more sense elaborates within itself, fragments into layers upon >>> layers >>> of embodied feelings, the more the quality is enriched. Consciousness >>> encapsulates many awarenesses, awareness encapsulates feelings, feeling >>> encapsulates perceptions, perception encapsulates sensations, etc. It is >>> the >>> elaboration of sense which allows experiences to become intelligent, and >>> with intelligence, the higher quality of sense educates the motivations, >>> expands the experience of time so that instincts can be interrupted and >>> replaced by more refined considerations. This virtuous cycle between >>> intelligence and free will is inevitable, but it is will beneath >>> intelligence which integrates information and utilizes it. >>> >>> Craig >>> >>>> Richard >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 7:01 AM, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Roger, >>>>> >>>>> How can you have a wave without some notion of spatial/temporal >>>>> dimensions? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Roger Clough <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi everything-list, >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't believe that Descartes would accept the MWI. >>>>>> Here's why: >>>>>> >>>>>> I think that the ManyWorldsInterpretation of QM is incorrect, >>>>>> due to the mistaken notion (IMHO) that quantum waves >>>>>> are physical waves, so that everything is physical and materialistic. >>>>>> >>>>>> This seems to deny "quantum weirdness" observed >>>>>> in the two-slit experiment. Seemingly if both the wave >>>>>> and the photon are physical, there should be nothing weird >>>>>> happening. >>>>>> >>>>>> My own view is that the weirdness arises because the >>>>>> waves and the photons are residents of two completely >>>>>> different but interpenetrating worlds, where: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1) the photon is a resident of the physical world, >>>>>> where by physical I mean (along with Descartes) >>>>>> "extended in space", >>>>>> >>>>>> 2) the quantum wave in nonphysical, being a resident of >>>>>> the nonphysical world (the world of mind), which has no >>>>>> extension in space. >>>>>> >>>>>> Under these conditions, there is no need >>>>>> to create an additional physical world, since each >>>>>> can exist as aspects of the the same world, >>>>>> one moving in spactime and being physical, the other, like >>>>>> mind, moving simulataneously in the nonphysical world >>>>>> beyond spacetime. >>>>>> >>>>>> [Roger Clough], [[email protected]] >>>>>> 1/12/2013 >>>>>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups >>>>>> "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups >>>>> "Everything List" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> [email protected]. >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/XOYz42fEIc8J. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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