On Saturday, January 12, 2013 6:46:23 AM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 6:10 AM, Craig Weinberg 
> <whats...@gmail.com<javascript:>
> > wrote:
>> On Thursday, January 10, 2013 4:58:32 PM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote:
>>> Hi Craig,
>>> I tend to agree with what you say (or what I understand of it). Despite 
>>> my belief that it is possible to extract memories (or their 3p shadows) 
>>> from a brain,
>> As long as you have another brain to experience the extracted memories in 
>> 1p, then I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a 3p transmission of some 
>> experiential content from one brain to another.
>>> I do not believe in the neuroscience hypothesis that consciousness 
>>> emerges from brain activity. I'm not sure I believe that there is a degree 
>>> of consciousness in everything, but it sounds more plausible than the 
>>> emergence from complexity idea.
>>> Still I feel that you avoid some questions. Maybe it's just my lack of 
>>> understanding of what you're saying. For example: what is the primary 
>>> "stuff" in your theory? In the same sense that for materialists it's 
>>> subatomic particles and for comp it's N, +, *. What's yours?
>> For me the primary stuff is sensory-motor presence.
> It's very hard for me to grasp this.

It's supposed to be hard to grasp. We are supposed to watch the movie, not 
try to figure out who the actors really are and how the camera works.  

>>  Particles are public sense representations. N, +, * are private sense 
>> representations. Particles represent the experience of sensory-motor 
>> obstruction as topological bodies. Integers and arithmetic operators 
>> represent the sensory-motor relations of public objects as private logical 
>> figures.
>> Craig
>>> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, January 9, 2013 6:18:37 AM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote:
>>>>> Hi Craig,
>>>>>> Cool. I actually would have agreed with you and a lot of people here 
>>>>>> at different times in my life. It's only been lately in the last five 
>>>>>> years 
>>>>>> or so that I have put together this other way of understanding 
>>>>>> everything. 
>>>>>> It gets lost in the debating, because I feel like I have to make my 
>>>>>> points 
>>>>>> about what is different or new about how I see things, but I do 
>>>>>> understand 
>>>>>> that other ways of looking at it make a lot of sense too - so much so 
>>>>>> that 
>>>>>> I suppose I am drawn only to digging into the weak spots to try to  get 
>>>>>> others to see the secret exit that I think I've found...
>>>>> Ok, this sounds interesting and I'd like to know more. I've been away 
>>>>> from the mailing list in the last few years, so maybe you've talked about 
>>>>> it before. Would you tell me about that secret exit?
>>>> The secret exit is to reverse the assumption that consciousness occurs 
>>>> from functions or substances. Even though our human consciousness depends 
>>>> on a living human body (as far as we know for sure), that may be because 
>>>> of 
>>>> the degree of elaboration required to develop a human quality of 
>>>> experience, not because the fundamental capacity to perceive and 
>>>> participate depends on anything at all.
>>>> Being inside of a human experience means being inside of an animal 
>>>> experience, an organism's experience, a cellular and molecular level 
>>>> experience. The alternative means picking an arbitrary level at which 
>>>> total 
>>>> lack of awareness suddenly changes into perception and participation for 
>>>> no 
>>>> conceivable reason. Instead of hanging on to the hope of finding such a 
>>>> level or gate, the secret is to see that there are many levels and gates 
>>>> but that they are qualitative, with each richer integration of qualia 
>>>> reframing the levels left behind in a particular way, and that way 
>>>> (another 
>>>> key) is to reduce it from a personal, animistic temporal flow of 1p 
>>>> meaning 
>>>> and significant preference  to impersonal, mechanistic spatial bodies 
>>>> ruled 
>>>> by cause-effect and chance/probability. 1p and 3p are relativistic, but 
>>>> what joins them is the capacity to discern the difference. 
>>>> Rather than sense i/o being a function or logic take for granted, flip 
>>>> it over so that logic is the 3p shadow of sense. The 3p view is a frozen 
>>>> snapshot of countless 1p views as seen from the outside, and the qualities 
>>>> of the 3p view depend entirely on the nature of the 1p 
>>>> perceiver-partcipant. Sense is semiotic. Its qualitative layers are 
>>>> partitioned by habit and interpretive inertia, just as an ambiguous image 
>>>> looks different depending on how you personally direct your perception, or 
>>>> how a book that you read when you are 12 years old can have different 
>>>> meanings at 18 or 35. The meaning isn't just 'out there', it's literally, 
>>>> physically "in here". If this is true, then the entire physical universe 
>>>> doubles in size, or really is squared as every exterior surface is a 3p 
>>>> representation of an entire history of 1p experience. Each acorn is a 
>>>> potential for oak tree forest, an encyclopedia of evolution and cosmology, 
>>>> so that the acorn is just a semiotic placeholder which is scaled and 
>>>> iconicized appropriately as a consequence of the relation of our human 
>>>> quality awareness and that of the evolutionary-historical-**possible 
>>>> future contexts which we share with it (or the whole ensemble of 
>>>> experiences in which 'we' are both embedded as strands of the story of the 
>>>> universe rather than just human body and acorn body or cells and cells 
>>>> etc).
>>>> To understand the common thread for all of it, always go back to the 
>>>> juxtaposition of 1p vs 3p, not *that* there is a difference, but the 
>>>> qualities of *what* those differences are - the sense of the 
>>>> juxtaposition. 
>>>> http://media.tumblr.com/**tumblr_m9y9by2XXw1qe3q3v.jpg<http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9y9by2XXw1qe3q3v.jpg>
>>>> http://media.tumblr.com/**tumblr_m9y9boN5rP1qe3q3v.jpg<http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9y9boN5rP1qe3q3v.jpg>
>>>> That's were I get sense and motive or perception and participation. The 
>>>> symmetry is more primitive than either matter or mind, so that it isn't 
>>>> one 
>>>> which builds a bridge to the other but sense which divides itself on one 
>>>> level while retaining unity on another, creating not just dualism but a 
>>>> continuum of monism, dualism, dialectic, trichotomy, syzygy, etc. Many 
>>>> levels and perspectives on sense within sense.
>>>> http://multisenserealism.com/**about/<http://multisenserealism.com/about/>
>>>> Craig
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