On Saturday, January 12, 2013 6:46:23 AM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 6:10 AM, Craig Weinberg 
> <whats...@gmail.com<javascript:>
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, January 10, 2013 4:58:32 PM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Craig,
>>>
>>> I tend to agree with what you say (or what I understand of it). Despite 
>>> my belief that it is possible to extract memories (or their 3p shadows) 
>>> from a brain,
>>>
>>
>> As long as you have another brain to experience the extracted memories in 
>> 1p, then I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a 3p transmission of some 
>> experiential content from one brain to another.
>>  
>>
>>> I do not believe in the neuroscience hypothesis that consciousness 
>>> emerges from brain activity. I'm not sure I believe that there is a degree 
>>> of consciousness in everything, but it sounds more plausible than the 
>>> emergence from complexity idea.
>>>
>>> Still I feel that you avoid some questions. Maybe it's just my lack of 
>>> understanding of what you're saying. For example: what is the primary 
>>> "stuff" in your theory? In the same sense that for materialists it's 
>>> subatomic particles and for comp it's N, +, *. What's yours?
>>>
>>
>> For me the primary stuff is sensory-motor presence.
>>
>
> It's very hard for me to grasp this.
>

It's supposed to be hard to grasp. We are supposed to watch the movie, not 
try to figure out who the actors really are and how the camera works.  

 
>
>>  Particles are public sense representations. N, +, * are private sense 
>> representations. Particles represent the experience of sensory-motor 
>> obstruction as topological bodies. Integers and arithmetic operators 
>> represent the sensory-motor relations of public objects as private logical 
>> figures.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, January 9, 2013 6:18:37 AM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Craig,
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cool. I actually would have agreed with you and a lot of people here 
>>>>>> at different times in my life. It's only been lately in the last five 
>>>>>> years 
>>>>>> or so that I have put together this other way of understanding 
>>>>>> everything. 
>>>>>> It gets lost in the debating, because I feel like I have to make my 
>>>>>> points 
>>>>>> about what is different or new about how I see things, but I do 
>>>>>> understand 
>>>>>> that other ways of looking at it make a lot of sense too - so much so 
>>>>>> that 
>>>>>> I suppose I am drawn only to digging into the weak spots to try to  get 
>>>>>> others to see the secret exit that I think I've found...
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ok, this sounds interesting and I'd like to know more. I've been away 
>>>>> from the mailing list in the last few years, so maybe you've talked about 
>>>>> it before. Would you tell me about that secret exit?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The secret exit is to reverse the assumption that consciousness occurs 
>>>> from functions or substances. Even though our human consciousness depends 
>>>> on a living human body (as far as we know for sure), that may be because 
>>>> of 
>>>> the degree of elaboration required to develop a human quality of 
>>>> experience, not because the fundamental capacity to perceive and 
>>>> participate depends on anything at all.
>>>>
>>>> Being inside of a human experience means being inside of an animal 
>>>> experience, an organism's experience, a cellular and molecular level 
>>>> experience. The alternative means picking an arbitrary level at which 
>>>> total 
>>>> lack of awareness suddenly changes into perception and participation for 
>>>> no 
>>>> conceivable reason. Instead of hanging on to the hope of finding such a 
>>>> level or gate, the secret is to see that there are many levels and gates 
>>>> but that they are qualitative, with each richer integration of qualia 
>>>> reframing the levels left behind in a particular way, and that way 
>>>> (another 
>>>> key) is to reduce it from a personal, animistic temporal flow of 1p 
>>>> meaning 
>>>> and significant preference  to impersonal, mechanistic spatial bodies 
>>>> ruled 
>>>> by cause-effect and chance/probability. 1p and 3p are relativistic, but 
>>>> what joins them is the capacity to discern the difference. 
>>>>
>>>> Rather than sense i/o being a function or logic take for granted, flip 
>>>> it over so that logic is the 3p shadow of sense. The 3p view is a frozen 
>>>> snapshot of countless 1p views as seen from the outside, and the qualities 
>>>> of the 3p view depend entirely on the nature of the 1p 
>>>> perceiver-partcipant. Sense is semiotic. Its qualitative layers are 
>>>> partitioned by habit and interpretive inertia, just as an ambiguous image 
>>>> looks different depending on how you personally direct your perception, or 
>>>> how a book that you read when you are 12 years old can have different 
>>>> meanings at 18 or 35. The meaning isn't just 'out there', it's literally, 
>>>> physically "in here". If this is true, then the entire physical universe 
>>>> doubles in size, or really is squared as every exterior surface is a 3p 
>>>> representation of an entire history of 1p experience. Each acorn is a 
>>>> potential for oak tree forest, an encyclopedia of evolution and cosmology, 
>>>> so that the acorn is just a semiotic placeholder which is scaled and 
>>>> iconicized appropriately as a consequence of the relation of our human 
>>>> quality awareness and that of the evolutionary-historical-**possible 
>>>> future contexts which we share with it (or the whole ensemble of 
>>>> experiences in which 'we' are both embedded as strands of the story of the 
>>>> universe rather than just human body and acorn body or cells and cells 
>>>> etc).
>>>>
>>>> To understand the common thread for all of it, always go back to the 
>>>> juxtaposition of 1p vs 3p, not *that* there is a difference, but the 
>>>> qualities of *what* those differences are - the sense of the 
>>>> juxtaposition. 
>>>>
>>>> http://media.tumblr.com/**tumblr_m9y9by2XXw1qe3q3v.jpg<http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9y9by2XXw1qe3q3v.jpg>
>>>> http://media.tumblr.com/**tumblr_m9y9boN5rP1qe3q3v.jpg<http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9y9boN5rP1qe3q3v.jpg>
>>>>
>>>> That's were I get sense and motive or perception and participation. The 
>>>> symmetry is more primitive than either matter or mind, so that it isn't 
>>>> one 
>>>> which builds a bridge to the other but sense which divides itself on one 
>>>> level while retaining unity on another, creating not just dualism but a 
>>>> continuum of monism, dualism, dialectic, trichotomy, syzygy, etc. Many 
>>>> levels and perspectives on sense within sense.
>>>>
>>>> http://multisenserealism.com/**about/<http://multisenserealism.com/about/>
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
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>>>
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