On Saturday, January 12, 2013 6:46:23 AM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 6:10 AM, Craig Weinberg > <[email protected]<javascript:> > > wrote: > >> >> >> On Thursday, January 10, 2013 4:58:32 PM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote: >> >>> Hi Craig, >>> >>> I tend to agree with what you say (or what I understand of it). Despite >>> my belief that it is possible to extract memories (or their 3p shadows) >>> from a brain, >>> >> >> As long as you have another brain to experience the extracted memories in >> 1p, then I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a 3p transmission of some >> experiential content from one brain to another. >> >> >>> I do not believe in the neuroscience hypothesis that consciousness >>> emerges from brain activity. I'm not sure I believe that there is a degree >>> of consciousness in everything, but it sounds more plausible than the >>> emergence from complexity idea. >>> >>> Still I feel that you avoid some questions. Maybe it's just my lack of >>> understanding of what you're saying. For example: what is the primary >>> "stuff" in your theory? In the same sense that for materialists it's >>> subatomic particles and for comp it's N, +, *. What's yours? >>> >> >> For me the primary stuff is sensory-motor presence. >> > > It's very hard for me to grasp this. >
It's supposed to be hard to grasp. We are supposed to watch the movie, not try to figure out who the actors really are and how the camera works. > >> Particles are public sense representations. N, +, * are private sense >> representations. Particles represent the experience of sensory-motor >> obstruction as topological bodies. Integers and arithmetic operators >> represent the sensory-motor relations of public objects as private logical >> figures. >> >> Craig >> >> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Craig Weinberg <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, January 9, 2013 6:18:37 AM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Craig, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Cool. I actually would have agreed with you and a lot of people here >>>>>> at different times in my life. It's only been lately in the last five >>>>>> years >>>>>> or so that I have put together this other way of understanding >>>>>> everything. >>>>>> It gets lost in the debating, because I feel like I have to make my >>>>>> points >>>>>> about what is different or new about how I see things, but I do >>>>>> understand >>>>>> that other ways of looking at it make a lot of sense too - so much so >>>>>> that >>>>>> I suppose I am drawn only to digging into the weak spots to try to get >>>>>> others to see the secret exit that I think I've found... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ok, this sounds interesting and I'd like to know more. I've been away >>>>> from the mailing list in the last few years, so maybe you've talked about >>>>> it before. Would you tell me about that secret exit? >>>>> >>>> >>>> The secret exit is to reverse the assumption that consciousness occurs >>>> from functions or substances. Even though our human consciousness depends >>>> on a living human body (as far as we know for sure), that may be because >>>> of >>>> the degree of elaboration required to develop a human quality of >>>> experience, not because the fundamental capacity to perceive and >>>> participate depends on anything at all. >>>> >>>> Being inside of a human experience means being inside of an animal >>>> experience, an organism's experience, a cellular and molecular level >>>> experience. The alternative means picking an arbitrary level at which >>>> total >>>> lack of awareness suddenly changes into perception and participation for >>>> no >>>> conceivable reason. Instead of hanging on to the hope of finding such a >>>> level or gate, the secret is to see that there are many levels and gates >>>> but that they are qualitative, with each richer integration of qualia >>>> reframing the levels left behind in a particular way, and that way >>>> (another >>>> key) is to reduce it from a personal, animistic temporal flow of 1p >>>> meaning >>>> and significant preference to impersonal, mechanistic spatial bodies >>>> ruled >>>> by cause-effect and chance/probability. 1p and 3p are relativistic, but >>>> what joins them is the capacity to discern the difference. >>>> >>>> Rather than sense i/o being a function or logic take for granted, flip >>>> it over so that logic is the 3p shadow of sense. The 3p view is a frozen >>>> snapshot of countless 1p views as seen from the outside, and the qualities >>>> of the 3p view depend entirely on the nature of the 1p >>>> perceiver-partcipant. Sense is semiotic. Its qualitative layers are >>>> partitioned by habit and interpretive inertia, just as an ambiguous image >>>> looks different depending on how you personally direct your perception, or >>>> how a book that you read when you are 12 years old can have different >>>> meanings at 18 or 35. The meaning isn't just 'out there', it's literally, >>>> physically "in here". If this is true, then the entire physical universe >>>> doubles in size, or really is squared as every exterior surface is a 3p >>>> representation of an entire history of 1p experience. Each acorn is a >>>> potential for oak tree forest, an encyclopedia of evolution and cosmology, >>>> so that the acorn is just a semiotic placeholder which is scaled and >>>> iconicized appropriately as a consequence of the relation of our human >>>> quality awareness and that of the evolutionary-historical-**possible >>>> future contexts which we share with it (or the whole ensemble of >>>> experiences in which 'we' are both embedded as strands of the story of the >>>> universe rather than just human body and acorn body or cells and cells >>>> etc). >>>> >>>> To understand the common thread for all of it, always go back to the >>>> juxtaposition of 1p vs 3p, not *that* there is a difference, but the >>>> qualities of *what* those differences are - the sense of the >>>> juxtaposition. >>>> >>>> http://media.tumblr.com/**tumblr_m9y9by2XXw1qe3q3v.jpg<http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9y9by2XXw1qe3q3v.jpg> >>>> http://media.tumblr.com/**tumblr_m9y9boN5rP1qe3q3v.jpg<http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9y9boN5rP1qe3q3v.jpg> >>>> >>>> That's were I get sense and motive or perception and participation. The >>>> symmetry is more primitive than either matter or mind, so that it isn't >>>> one >>>> which builds a bridge to the other but sense which divides itself on one >>>> level while retaining unity on another, creating not just dualism but a >>>> continuum of monism, dualism, dialectic, trichotomy, syzygy, etc. Many >>>> levels and perspectives on sense within sense. >>>> >>>> http://multisenserealism.com/**about/<http://multisenserealism.com/about/> >>>> >>>> Craig >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/** >>>> msg/everything-list/-/**elwBNPr92z4J<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/elwBNPr92z4J> >>>> . >>>> >>>> To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.**com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-li...@** >>>> googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/** >>>> group/everything-list?hl=en<http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en> >>>> . >>>> >>> >>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/-/4JA1h79Ss5IJ. >> >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]<javascript:> >> . >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected] <javascript:>. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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