On Thursday, January 10, 2013 4:58:32 PM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote:
> Hi Craig,
> I tend to agree with what you say (or what I understand of it). Despite my 
> belief that it is possible to extract memories (or their 3p shadows) from a 
> brain,

As long as you have another brain to experience the extracted memories in 
1p, then I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a 3p transmission of some 
experiential content from one brain to another.

> I do not believe in the neuroscience hypothesis that consciousness emerges 
> from brain activity. I'm not sure I believe that there is a degree of 
> consciousness in everything, but it sounds more plausible than the 
> emergence from complexity idea.
> Still I feel that you avoid some questions. Maybe it's just my lack of 
> understanding of what you're saying. For example: what is the primary 
> "stuff" in your theory? In the same sense that for materialists it's 
> subatomic particles and for comp it's N, +, *. What's yours?

For me the primary stuff is sensory-motor presence. Particles are public 
sense representations. N, +, * are private sense representations. Particles 
represent the experience of sensory-motor obstruction as topological 
bodies. Integers and arithmetic operators represent the sensory-motor 
relations of public objects as private logical figures.


> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Craig Weinberg 
> <whats...@gmail.com<javascript:>
> > wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 9, 2013 6:18:37 AM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote:
>>> Hi Craig,
>>>> Cool. I actually would have agreed with you and a lot of people here at 
>>>> different times in my life. It's only been lately in the last five years 
>>>> or 
>>>> so that I have put together this other way of understanding everything. It 
>>>> gets lost in the debating, because I feel like I have to make my points 
>>>> about what is different or new about how I see things, but I do understand 
>>>> that other ways of looking at it make a lot of sense too - so much so that 
>>>> I suppose I am drawn only to digging into the weak spots to try to  get 
>>>> others to see the secret exit that I think I've found...
>>> Ok, this sounds interesting and I'd like to know more. I've been away 
>>> from the mailing list in the last few years, so maybe you've talked about 
>>> it before. Would you tell me about that secret exit?
>> The secret exit is to reverse the assumption that consciousness occurs 
>> from functions or substances. Even though our human consciousness depends 
>> on a living human body (as far as we know for sure), that may be because of 
>> the degree of elaboration required to develop a human quality of 
>> experience, not because the fundamental capacity to perceive and 
>> participate depends on anything at all.
>> Being inside of a human experience means being inside of an animal 
>> experience, an organism's experience, a cellular and molecular level 
>> experience. The alternative means picking an arbitrary level at which total 
>> lack of awareness suddenly changes into perception and participation for no 
>> conceivable reason. Instead of hanging on to the hope of finding such a 
>> level or gate, the secret is to see that there are many levels and gates 
>> but that they are qualitative, with each richer integration of qualia 
>> reframing the levels left behind in a particular way, and that way (another 
>> key) is to reduce it from a personal, animistic temporal flow of 1p meaning 
>> and significant preference  to impersonal, mechanistic spatial bodies ruled 
>> by cause-effect and chance/probability. 1p and 3p are relativistic, but 
>> what joins them is the capacity to discern the difference. 
>> Rather than sense i/o being a function or logic take for granted, flip it 
>> over so that logic is the 3p shadow of sense. The 3p view is a frozen 
>> snapshot of countless 1p views as seen from the outside, and the qualities 
>> of the 3p view depend entirely on the nature of the 1p 
>> perceiver-partcipant. Sense is semiotic. Its qualitative layers are 
>> partitioned by habit and interpretive inertia, just as an ambiguous image 
>> looks different depending on how you personally direct your perception, or 
>> how a book that you read when you are 12 years old can have different 
>> meanings at 18 or 35. The meaning isn't just 'out there', it's literally, 
>> physically "in here". If this is true, then the entire physical universe 
>> doubles in size, or really is squared as every exterior surface is a 3p 
>> representation of an entire history of 1p experience. Each acorn is a 
>> potential for oak tree forest, an encyclopedia of evolution and cosmology, 
>> so that the acorn is just a semiotic placeholder which is scaled and 
>> iconicized appropriately as a consequence of the relation of our human 
>> quality awareness and that of the evolutionary-historical-possible future 
>> contexts which we share with it (or the whole ensemble of experiences in 
>> which 'we' are both embedded as strands of the story of the universe rather 
>> than just human body and acorn body or cells and cells etc).
>> To understand the common thread for all of it, always go back to the 
>> juxtaposition of 1p vs 3p, not *that* there is a difference, but the 
>> qualities of *what* those differences are - the sense of the juxtaposition. 
>> http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9y9by2XXw1qe3q3v.jpg
>> http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9y9boN5rP1qe3q3v.jpg
>> That's were I get sense and motive or perception and participation. The 
>> symmetry is more primitive than either matter or mind, so that it isn't one 
>> which builds a bridge to the other but sense which divides itself on one 
>> level while retaining unity on another, creating not just dualism but a 
>> continuum of monism, dualism, dialectic, trichotomy, syzygy, etc. Many 
>> levels and perspectives on sense within sense.
>> http://multisenserealism.com/about/
>> Craig
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