On Fri, Jan 11, 2013 at 6:10 AM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>wrote:
> On Thursday, January 10, 2013 4:58:32 PM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote:
>> Hi Craig,
>> I tend to agree with what you say (or what I understand of it). Despite
>> my belief that it is possible to extract memories (or their 3p shadows)
>> from a brain,
> As long as you have another brain to experience the extracted memories in
> 1p, then I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a 3p transmission of some
> experiential content from one brain to another.
>> I do not believe in the neuroscience hypothesis that consciousness
>> emerges from brain activity. I'm not sure I believe that there is a degree
>> of consciousness in everything, but it sounds more plausible than the
>> emergence from complexity idea.
>> Still I feel that you avoid some questions. Maybe it's just my lack of
>> understanding of what you're saying. For example: what is the primary
>> "stuff" in your theory? In the same sense that for materialists it's
>> subatomic particles and for comp it's N, +, *. What's yours?
> For me the primary stuff is sensory-motor presence.
It's very hard for me to grasp this.
> Particles are public sense representations. N, +, * are private sense
> representations. Particles represent the experience of sensory-motor
> obstruction as topological bodies. Integers and arithmetic operators
> represent the sensory-motor relations of public objects as private logical
>> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Craig Weinberg <whats...@gmail.com>wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 9, 2013 6:18:37 AM UTC-5, telmo_menezes wrote:
>>>> Hi Craig,
>>>>> Cool. I actually would have agreed with you and a lot of people here
>>>>> at different times in my life. It's only been lately in the last five
>>>>> or so that I have put together this other way of understanding everything.
>>>>> It gets lost in the debating, because I feel like I have to make my points
>>>>> about what is different or new about how I see things, but I do understand
>>>>> that other ways of looking at it make a lot of sense too - so much so that
>>>>> I suppose I am drawn only to digging into the weak spots to try to get
>>>>> others to see the secret exit that I think I've found...
>>>> Ok, this sounds interesting and I'd like to know more. I've been away
>>>> from the mailing list in the last few years, so maybe you've talked about
>>>> it before. Would you tell me about that secret exit?
>>> The secret exit is to reverse the assumption that consciousness occurs
>>> from functions or substances. Even though our human consciousness depends
>>> on a living human body (as far as we know for sure), that may be because of
>>> the degree of elaboration required to develop a human quality of
>>> experience, not because the fundamental capacity to perceive and
>>> participate depends on anything at all.
>>> Being inside of a human experience means being inside of an animal
>>> experience, an organism's experience, a cellular and molecular level
>>> experience. The alternative means picking an arbitrary level at which total
>>> lack of awareness suddenly changes into perception and participation for no
>>> conceivable reason. Instead of hanging on to the hope of finding such a
>>> level or gate, the secret is to see that there are many levels and gates
>>> but that they are qualitative, with each richer integration of qualia
>>> reframing the levels left behind in a particular way, and that way (another
>>> key) is to reduce it from a personal, animistic temporal flow of 1p meaning
>>> and significant preference to impersonal, mechanistic spatial bodies ruled
>>> by cause-effect and chance/probability. 1p and 3p are relativistic, but
>>> what joins them is the capacity to discern the difference.
>>> Rather than sense i/o being a function or logic take for granted, flip
>>> it over so that logic is the 3p shadow of sense. The 3p view is a frozen
>>> snapshot of countless 1p views as seen from the outside, and the qualities
>>> of the 3p view depend entirely on the nature of the 1p
>>> perceiver-partcipant. Sense is semiotic. Its qualitative layers are
>>> partitioned by habit and interpretive inertia, just as an ambiguous image
>>> looks different depending on how you personally direct your perception, or
>>> how a book that you read when you are 12 years old can have different
>>> meanings at 18 or 35. The meaning isn't just 'out there', it's literally,
>>> physically "in here". If this is true, then the entire physical universe
>>> doubles in size, or really is squared as every exterior surface is a 3p
>>> representation of an entire history of 1p experience. Each acorn is a
>>> potential for oak tree forest, an encyclopedia of evolution and cosmology,
>>> so that the acorn is just a semiotic placeholder which is scaled and
>>> iconicized appropriately as a consequence of the relation of our human
>>> quality awareness and that of the evolutionary-historical-**possible
>>> future contexts which we share with it (or the whole ensemble of
>>> experiences in which 'we' are both embedded as strands of the story of the
>>> universe rather than just human body and acorn body or cells and cells etc).
>>> To understand the common thread for all of it, always go back to the
>>> juxtaposition of 1p vs 3p, not *that* there is a difference, but the
>>> qualities of *what* those differences are - the sense of the juxtaposition.
>>> That's were I get sense and motive or perception and participation. The
>>> symmetry is more primitive than either matter or mind, so that it isn't one
>>> which builds a bridge to the other but sense which divides itself on one
>>> level while retaining unity on another, creating not just dualism but a
>>> continuum of monism, dualism, dialectic, trichotomy, syzygy, etc. Many
>>> levels and perspectives on sense within sense.
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