On 09 Feb 2013, at 15:16, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:

On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:19 AM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
On 2/8/2013 12:04 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:

On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 1:23 AM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
On 2/7/2013 3:15 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:

On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:53 PM, meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
On 2/7/2013 12:01 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:
“A secular purpose” is a nice ruse, because it is “theology-free”, right?

Yes it is. It's not dependent on any ultimate foundation of the universe (per Bruno's definition of 'theology') or even any agreement about what that might be. It only depends on the public subjective non-religious values of society as expressed in their laws. That's what 'secular' means.

By what mechanism does a value become "non-religious"? How did "marriage" become secular for instance?

Can you define non-religious values?

I can where religions are certified by the state.

Care to share an example of a secular value stripped of all religious and transcendental connotations?

Sure, murder is bad. Of course this may be incoporated into many different religions as a value imposed by some transcendental force - but it's constancy across many cultures and religions, it's obvious relation to evolutionary survival makes it pretty clear that it's a secular value.

You take "negation murder" to be a secular value? Ok, I'll go along with this even though I believe no state or individual sees that, as an ethical end to strive for in the sense of a negative intrinsic value.

"Not murder" is, along with all these cultural and evolutionary factors, transcendental, as it follows from valuing life in the simpler self-referential statement: "I live, hence I don't want to die. I live, therefore I wouldn't want to be killed, therefore murder is bad."

You ask why, and you'll get a transcendental answer: "Because my life is not worth killing." => simply belief, as the person in question could be a Hitler type, with a Stauffenberg waiting in the next room. Human life appears as the primary, intrinsic value even here, and not "not murder", which is merely instrumental negative value implied by the primary value of affirming human life. The negative instrumental value can be overridden, to assert the intrinsic one. "I value human life" in the general intrinsic, affirmative sense is much harder to override.

"Value human life" is common sense with transcendental roots; not some naive nonsense imposed onto religions by their arbitrary transcendental false deity.

Additionally, some mystics, theologians, and religions were able to nail this point without recourse to "historical appearance of cultural consistency and religions, evolutionary survival", in which you've obscured the transcendental quality to make your point: these are imho just sophisticated justifications (still products of science's narrative of seeking truth; a truth beyond our reach => transcendental smiles back at us again anyway, if you ask "why?" enough times) of something much simpler: the will to live, including the irrational belief bit we can't wrap our minds around, as we could also be evil and our value of life misplaced at times.

If you make evolution set the standard, then you have to buy the darker side of its theology: "Good Tsunami, asteroid, CO2, mass extinctions of life forms; as these shocks will create a stronger forcing function on populations and individuals to adapt in the long term; good my family got killed in that last quake".

Good points.

In fact some people seem to have hard to understand that physics is not theology, as they bear on different questions. But saying there is no theology, makes physics (usually) into a theology. It is no more physics: it is physics + a theological assumption. It becomes *a* theology. Not saying it makes it authoritative, which is, provably with comp, the theological trap.

In science, locally, we can still tolerate an amount of authority and conservatism, but in religion we can't. The contrary can happen, and that's we have not really begin to do science.



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