On 09 Feb 2013, at 23:44, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 08 Feb 2013, at 13:45, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
Well, yes... with computer you could imagine doing just that... so
why not ? Also, the fact that you can't imagine a solution
yourself, doesn't mean there isn't one, lack of imagination is also
not an argument.
I agree. This can happen in dreams. I have personally experience
this a number of times, and I have read similar reports. Actually
Louis Jouvet, the discoverer of the REM dreams, has studied that
phenomenon, in the case of people relating simultaneous unrelated
dreams, and he attributed this to the disfunctionning of the corpus
callosum during the dream phase. It makes momentarily the two
hemisphere independent. It looks like we can integrate different
identities in different past. The result is a bit troubling ...
unless we are already aware of the relative nature of personal
identity. This happens also when using dissociative drugs.
Of course, if Telmo wakes up with the memory of a cat experience, he
will only access of the memory of cat + Telmo, which might biase the
original experience of the cat,
That's exactly all I'm saying.
OK.
but not necessarily so much for a short period of time. This makes
possible to conceive "waking up" and memorizing more than one past
threads.
I have no problem with this, but I'm proposing that for you to have
the 1p experience of another entity, the only solution is to become
the other entity. If a merged 1p of the two entities is achieved, a
new entity with a new 1p is, in fact, created.
OK. But this still makes it possible to agree with Quentin too, as you
can disconnect different memories. The present memory always biases
older memories, so you can live a cat experience, and when you awake
as a human, still have a pretty good idea of what it was like to be a
cat, even if now, you can only live the experience of being a human
remembering what it was like to be a cat, and thus introducing the
unavoidable bias, which does not need to be so great, thanks to local
dissociation. In case you live the experience of a bee, there is the
difficulty that although you might get new qualia for the seeing of
the ultraviolet, you will find hard to relate it with any human
memories, etc.
Bruno
If the many past threads are equivalently realist and coherent, it
leads to a direct understanding of the relative nature of identity,
and the possibility of sharing initial consciousness of ... who? I
let you ponder on this.
Bruno
Regards,
Quentin
Regards,
Quentin
For example, to store the memories on how a cat feels about
climbing a tree, I would have to access my human representation of
a tree to connect the memories to it, but accessing my human
representation of a tree would spoil my cat experience.
Regards,
Quentin
And yes I think there are degrees and kinds of consciousness and
that a cat's consciousness differs in both respects. There's
consciousness of being an individual and of being located in 3-
space and in time. You and the cat have both of those (whereas a
Mars rover only has the latter). But there's language and
narrative memory that you have and the cat doesn't. There's
reflective thought,"I'm Telmo and I'm thinking about myself and
where I fit in the world". The cat probably doesn't have this
because it's not social - but a dog might.
But is this really a case of "degrees of consciousness" or is it
just the general property of "being conscious" instantiated in
different contexts? The fact that you believe you can turn me into
a cat seems to indicate that ultimately you believe that
consciousness is all the same.
Brent
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