On Sunday, February 10, 2013 4:23:52 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote:
>
> On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 7:06 AM, Craig Weinberg 
> <whats...@gmail.com<javascript:>> 
> wrote: 
>
> >> Why would being generated in a single moment through cell 
> >> fertilization have any bearing on consciousness? 
> > 
> > 
> > Because consciousness is a singularity of perspective through time, or 
> > rather through which time is created. 
>
> That's not an explanation. 
>

It's a hypothesis.
 

>
> >> Why would something 
> >> created by someone else not have consciousness? 
> > 
> > 
> > Because it is assembled rather than created. It's like asking why wood 
> > doesn't catch on fire by itself just by stacking it in a pile. 
>
> That's not an explanation. 
>

It's a hypothesis that is consistent with my model and with observation.
 

>
> >> Why would something 
> >> lacking internally generated motives (which does not apply to 
> >> computers any more than to people) lack consciousness? 
> > 
> > 
> > Why would computers have an internally generated motive? It doesn't care 
> > whether it functions or not. We know that people have personal motives 
> > because it isn't possible for us to doubt it without doubting our 
> ability to 
> > doubt. 
>
> You're saying a computer can't be conscious because it would need to 
> be conscious in order to be conscious. 
>

I'm saying that a computer is not physically real. We are using a 
collection of physical objects of various sizes as a machine to serve our 
motives to do our computations for us. It is not a structure which reflects 
an interior motive. What makes computers useful is that they have no 
capacity to object to drudgery. That is the capacity which is inseparable 
from unconsciousness.
 

>
> >> To make these 
> >> claims you would have to show either that they are necessarily true or 
> >> present empirical evidence in their support, and you have done 
> >> neither. 
> > 
> > 
> > You would have to show that these criteria are relevant for 
> consciousness, 
> > which you have not, and you cannot. 
>
> You make claims such as that a conscious being has to arise at a 
> moment of fertilization, which is completely without basis. You need 
> to present some explanation for such claims. "Consciousness is a 
> singularity of perspective through time" is not an explanation. 
>

I don't think that a conscious being arises at a moment of fertilization, I 
say that fertilization is just one milestone within biological stories. The 
stories are what is physically real, the private presentation. The cellular 
fusion is a public representation.

I see nothing wrong with observing the singular nature of consciousness and 
its role in providing a private perspective in creating time as an 
explanation. I don't see that anything that physics has produced is more 
explanatory than that. What is energy? What is space? What is quantum?


> > As long as you fail to recognize 
> > consciousness as the ground of being, you will continue to justify it 
> > against one of its own products - rationality, logic, empirical 
> examples, 
> > all of which are 100% sensory-motor. Consciousness can only be explained 
> to 
> > consciousness, in the terms of consciousness, to satisfy consciousness. 
> All 
> > other possibilities are subordinate. How could it be otherwise without 
> > ending up with a sterile ontology which prohibits our own participation? 
>
> Again, you've just made up "consciousness is the ground of being". 
>

Not at all. I have eliminated all other possibilities through rational 
consideration. It's very simple. A universe which contains only matter or 
only information has not possible use for participating perceivers. If you 
can provide a reason why or how this would occur, then I would be very 
interested and happy to consider your position.

It's like saying "consciousness is the light, light is not black, so 
> black people are not conscious". 
>

Nope. It's like saying that both light and dark are aspects of visual 
sense, and that visual sense cannot arise from either light or dark. 
 

>
> >> You don't think it would happen, but would you be prepared to say that 
> >> if a robot did pass the test, as tough as you want to make it, it 
> >> would be conscious? 
> > 
> > 
> > It's like asking me if there were a test for dehydrated water, would I 
> be 
> > prepared to say that it would be wet if it passed the test. No robot can 
> > ever be conscious. Nothing conscious can ever be a robot. Heads cannot 
> be 
> > Tails, even if we move our heads to where the tails side used to be and 
> > blink a lot. 
>
> So you accept the possibility of zombies, beings which could live 
> among us and consistently fool everyone into thinking they were 
> conscious? 
>

I don't even believe in the possibility of the word zombie. It is a 
misconception based on a misplaced expectation of consciousness in 
something which deserves no such expectation - like a puppet or a cartoon.  
Do I accept the possibility of puppets or cartoons who could be mistaken by 
everyone into thinking they were conscious? In a limited context, sure. 
There  could be a politician who is an idiot but has very good 
speechwriters that make him seem intelligent. So what? That says absolutely 
zero about the quality of the sensory-motor capacities, i.e. consciousness 
of a puppet.

Craig


>
> -- 
> Stathis Papaioannou 
>

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