On Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:58:20 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 20 Feb 2013, at 21:15, meekerdb wrote:
>
>  On 2/20/2013 8:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>  
> Hi John, 
>
>  
>  On 19 Feb 2013, at 23:28, John Mikes wrote:
>
> Craig, it seems we engaged in a fruitful discussion- thank you.  
>
> I want to reflect to *a few* concepts only from it to clarify MY stance. 
> First my use of *a 'model'.* There are different models, from the sexy 
> young females over the math-etc. descriptions of theoretical concepts (some 
> not so sexy). - What I (after Robert Rosen?) use by this word is an extract 
> of something, we may not know in toto. Close to an 'Occamized' version, but 
> "cut" mostly by ignorance of the 'rest of it', not for added clarity. 
> Applied to whatever we know TODAY about the world. Or: we THINK WE KNOW. 
>  
>
>  
>  A scientist know nothing. Just nothing, not even his own consciousness.
>
>  In science we have only beliefs, 
>  
>
> But then, according to you, if they happen to be true they are knowledge. 
>
>
> Yes, but "we" can't know that. 
>

Can "we" know that we can't know that?
 

>
>
>
> I'd say it's the other way around, scientists have no beliefs, only 
> hypotheses. 
>
>
>
> I define "belief" by "hypothesis" or "derived from hypotheses". That's why 
> in the ideally correct case, belief = provable. This works because provable 
> does not entail truth.
>
>
>
>
>
> If you ask a physicist, for example, if he believes GR he will probably 
> give a complicated answer about how it is our best theory of macroscopic 
> gravitation and it has proven correct in many experiments and it is our 
> best model - BUT it is almost certainly not right because its inconsistent 
> with QM.
>
>
> OK. (assuming QM is correct, of course).
>
>
I think that if QM were applied to itself, it would likely conclude that it 
was at once the truest and the least true theory to date, and I would agree 
with that.


Craig


>
>
>   and the best we can hope, is to refute them, by making them clear 
> enough.
>
>  I insist on this because there is a widespread misconsception in popular 
> science, but also among many materialist scientists (= many scientists), 
> that we can know something "scientifically", but that is provably wrong 
> with comp, and plausiibly wrong with common sense.
>
>  A scientist who make public his knowledge is a pseudo-scientist, or a 
> pseudo-religious person, or is simply mad.
>  
>
> Is that true of logicians too. :-)
>
>
> Yes. Actually logicians made this explicit, where most scientists are 
> unaware that their "scientific beliefs" are hypotheses. Many believe that 
> they are just "truth". Well, not all, of course. Some scientists have still 
> a scientific view, thanks God!
>
> :)
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
> Brent
>
>   
>  There is always an interrogation mark after any theory. Theories are 
> beliefs, never public knowledge. Even 1+1=2.
> But we can (temporally) agree on some theories. We have to do that to 
> refute them, and learn.
>
>  Bruno
>
>  
>  
>  
>  *
> You mention 'statistical' in connection with adaptation. I deny the 
> validity of statistics (and so: of probability) because it depends on the 
> borderlines to observe in "counting" the items. 1000 years ago (or maybe 
> yesterday) such boderlines were different, consequently different 
> statistics came up with different chances of occurrence in them (not even 
> mentioning the indifference of WHEN all those chances may materialize). 
> *
> *"...within a looped continuum of perceived causality..."  *
> Perceived causality is restricted to the 'model' content, while it may be 
> open to be entailed by instigators beyond our present knowledge. 
> Furthermore (in the flimsy concept we have about 'time' I cannot see a 
> 'loop' - only a propagating curve as everything changes by the time we 
> think to 'close' the loop (like the path of a planet as the Sun moves). 
> *
> *"...I couldn't agree with you more. That's a big part of what my TOE is 
> all about  http://multisenserealism.com/8-matter-energy/..."*
> Your TOE? - MY FOOT. - Agnostically we are so far from even speaking about
> * 'everything'* that the consecutively observable levels of gathering 
> some knowledge (adjusted to our ever evolving mental capabilities into some 
> personal 'mini-solipsism' - different always for everyone) is a great 
> pretension of the human conventional sciences. 
> (Don't take it personally, please). We LIVE and THINK within (my) model. 
> Whatever is beyond is unknowable. But it affects the model content. 
> The URL was an enjoyable reading - with Stephen's addition to it. 
>
>  Best regards
> John Mikes
> *
> *
> *
> *
> On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 9:47 PM, Craig Weinberg 
> <whats...@gmail.com<javascript:>
> > wrote:
>
>> I was so impressed with this page 
>> http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/misconceptions_faq.php#a1 
>>
>> that I thought it was worth listing a few here:
>>
>> *MISCONCEPTION: Natural selection involves organisms trying to adapt.*
>>
>> *MISCONCEPTION: Natural selection acts for the good of the species.*
>>
>> *MISCONCEPTION: The fittest organisms in a population are those that are 
>> strongest, healthiest, fastest, and/or largest.*
>>
>> *MISCONCEPTION: Natural selection is about survival of the very fittest 
>> individuals in a population.*
>>
>> *MISCONCEPTION: All traits of organisms are adaptations.*
>>
>> *MISCONCEPTION: Evolutionary theory implies that life evolved (and 
>> continues to evolve) randomly, or by chance.
>>
>> **MISCONCEPTION: Evolution results in progress; organisms are always 
>> getting better through evolution.*
>>  
>> **
>>
>> *
>> *
>>
>> *
>> *
>>
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