On 21 Feb 2013, at 15:06, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:58:20 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 20 Feb 2013, at 21:15, meekerdb wrote:
On 2/20/2013 8:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
Hi John,
On 19 Feb 2013, at 23:28, John Mikes wrote:
Craig, it seems we engaged in a fruitful discussion- thank you.
I want to reflect to a few concepts only from it to clarify MY
stance.
First my use of a 'model'. There are different models, from the
sexy young females over the math-etc. descriptions of theoretical
concepts (some not so sexy). - What I (after Robert Rosen?) use
by this word is an extract of something, we may not know in toto.
Close to an 'Occamized' version, but "cut" mostly by ignorance of
the 'rest of it', not for added clarity. Applied to whatever we
know TODAY about the world. Or: we THINK WE KNOW.
A scientist know nothing. Just nothing, not even his own
consciousness.
In science we have only beliefs,
But then, according to you, if they happen to be true they are
knowledge.
Yes, but "we" can't know that.
Can "we" know that we can't know that?
Yes. That something that the machine can prove and know. It is not
obvious, and is based on the fact, known already by Gödel, that
machines or formal systems can prove their own incompleteness theorem.
The rest follows from the Theatetus' definition of knowledge, and some
work.
I'd say it's the other way around, scientists have no beliefs, only
hypotheses.
I define "belief" by "hypothesis" or "derived from hypotheses".
That's why in the ideally correct case, belief = provable. This
works because provable does not entail truth.
If you ask a physicist, for example, if he believes GR he will
probably give a complicated answer about how it is our best theory
of macroscopic gravitation and it has proven correct in many
experiments and it is our best model - BUT it is almost certainly
not right because its inconsistent with QM.
OK. (assuming QM is correct, of course).
I think that if QM were applied to itself,
QM is an abstract theory about physical objects, not about abstract
theories. If you meant that QM applies to physicists, seen as physical
object, then we get the MWI.
it would likely conclude that it was at once the truest and the
least true theory to date, and I would agree with that.
?
Bruno
Craig
and the best we can hope, is to refute them, by making them clear
enough.
I insist on this because there is a widespread misconsception in
popular science, but also among many materialist scientists (=
many scientists), that we can know something "scientifically", but
that is provably wrong with comp, and plausiibly wrong with common
sense.
A scientist who make public his knowledge is a pseudo-scientist,
or a pseudo-religious person, or is simply mad.
Is that true of logicians too. :-)
Yes. Actually logicians made this explicit, where most scientists
are unaware that their "scientific beliefs" are hypotheses. Many
believe that they are just "truth". Well, not all, of course. Some
scientists have still a scientific view, thanks God!
:)
Bruno
Brent
There is always an interrogation mark after any theory. Theories
are beliefs, never public knowledge. Even 1+1=2.
But we can (temporally) agree on some theories. We have to do that
to refute them, and learn.
Bruno
*
You mention 'statistical' in connection with adaptation. I deny
the validity of statistics (and so: of probability) because it
depends on the borderlines to observe in "counting" the items.
1000 years ago (or maybe yesterday) such boderlines were
different, consequently different statistics came up with
different chances of occurrence in them (not even mentioning the
indifference of WHEN all those chances may materialize).
*
"...within a looped continuum of perceived causality..."
Perceived causality is restricted to the 'model' content, while
it may be open to be entailed by instigators beyond our present
knowledge.
Furthermore (in the flimsy concept we have about 'time' I cannot
see a 'loop' - only a propagating curve as everything changes by
the time we think to 'close' the loop (like the path of a planet
as the Sun moves).
*
"...I couldn't agree with you more. That's a big part of what my
TOE is all about http://multisenserealism.com/8-matter-energy/..."
Your TOE? - MY FOOT. - Agnostically we are so far from even
speaking about 'everything' that the consecutively observable
levels of gathering some knowledge (adjusted to our ever evolving
mental capabilities into some personal 'mini-solipsism' -
different always for everyone) is a great pretension of the human
conventional sciences.
(Don't take it personally, please). We LIVE and THINK within (my)
model. Whatever is beyond is unknowable. But it affects the model
content.
The URL was an enjoyable reading - with Stephen's addition to it.
Best regards
John Mikes
On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 9:47 PM, Craig Weinberg
<whats...@gmail.com> wrote:
I was so impressed with this page
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/misconceptions_faq.php#a1
that I thought it was worth listing a few here:
MISCONCEPTION: Natural selection involves organisms trying to
adapt.
MISCONCEPTION: Natural selection acts for the good of the species.
MISCONCEPTION: The fittest organisms in a population are those
that are strongest, healthiest, fastest, and/or largest.
MISCONCEPTION: Natural selection is about survival of the very
fittest individuals in a population.
MISCONCEPTION: All traits of organisms are adaptations.
MISCONCEPTION: Evolutionary theory implies that life evolved (and
continues to evolve) randomly, or by chance.
MISCONCEPTION: Evolution results in progress; organisms are
always getting better through evolution.
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