On 2/23/2013 5:33 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Friday, February 22, 2013 10:44:59 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:

    On 2/22/2013 6:08 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:


    On Friday, February 22, 2013 7:45:58 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:

        On 2/22/2013 3:06 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:


        On Friday, February 22, 2013 4:54:05 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote:

            On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 8:25 AM, Craig Weinberg 
<whats...@gmail.com> wrote:

                    >> What to you think with, your elbow?


                 > my point was that you have a double standard about which 
brain
                activities represent nothing but evolutionary driven illusions


            Illusions? Evolutionary drive is what made you the man you are 
today. And
            interpreting a 1D signal from the eye as 3D space is as valid a
            interpretation as any other, and apparently Evolution has 
determined that
            particular interpretation gets the most genes into the next 
generation.
            Thus you are good at 3D visualization because your ancestors were 
good at
            it too. You come from a long line of winners, most animals never 
manage to
            reproduce but every single one of your ancestors did.


        A successful evolutionary outcome doesn't have anything to do with the
        veracity of the content of a signal. If someone has a delusion that 
their
        ancestors are sacred turnip people and it causes them to plant turnips 
and
        survive a famine, that doesn't mean that their belief is not a 
delusion. There
        seems to be this theme with your positions which fanatically 
exaggerates the
        importance of winning, and how winning justifies whatever distortions 
of the
        truth are required

        On the contrary, John is saying that evolution must align perception at 
least
        roughly with reality because misalignment is likely to go badly - like 
when the
        turnip people keep planting turnips because their ancestor said so even 
though
        the turnip beetle keeps decimating their crops.


    It doesn't matter. As long as the turnip people survive to reproduce while 
everyone
    else in their niche die of hunger, then they are the heirs of that niche 
forever.
    If the next selection event is a turnip beetle, it will be some members of 
the
    turnip clan who liked to supplement their turnips with barley who survive - 
not
    someone from outside the clan (because they are all dead). Again it makes no
    difference at all whether the barley people know about crop rotation or soil
    aeration, nutrition, biology, etc. All that matters is that they had the 
barley
    when the turnips went south. If they have it because they believe that Odin
    commands it, then that will be the adaptation which is passed on to the next
    selection event.

    Yes, it makes no difference why you believe a useful thing, but if you 
believe
    things for reasons unrelated to reality then it is unlikely they will be 
useful.  I
    is astounding that you would argue against such an obvious proposition.  I 
can only
    conclude you are either a troll or brain damaged.


The more upset you become, the more I know that the flaws in your argument have been exposed. What you are arguing is that a computer has to know whether an mp3 file is sound or graphics before it can analyze the pattern of the data.

Bobbing and weaving, you change the subject to computers. Where did I mention computers? If you can't answer my point you just go off on a tangent and repeat your mantra: "If it's a computer it can't be aware."


It isn't true. Everything that can be done with data and translated into a physical action is independent of any experiential format. We know this for a fact - its the whole basis of computation: the universality of data processing. Every sense is reduced to an a-signifying binary code which allows us to add on whatever significance and format it in whatever sense modality we prefer to get it in. The computer has no sensory awareness of the significance we apply to its programs at all. If they did, we would simply be able to hook up a microscope and look at the area of the DRAM chips which correspond to video instructions and use that as our screen. But that doesn't work, because there is no place in a computer or in a brain where such a homuncular screen exists.



    The suggestion that "evolution must align perception at least roughly with 
reality"
    is interesting because it directly contradicts the model of qualia as a 
solipsistic
    simulation.

    You just made that up - it doesn't follow from anything, either logical or 
empirical
    - it's just blather.


That's an interesting reaction. I imagine something like an exorcism is taking place for you. It follows the classic pattern:

 "You just made that up" = It can't be true!

"it doesn't follow from anything, either logical or empirical" = the only possibility is that you are insane!

"it's just blather." = ad hominem ego defenses kick in, neutralizing the threat to your mental status quo.

What I said is rather simple and direct, both logical and empirical. I didn't make anything up, it's a simple observation that you are arguing both sides of the debate if you say on one hand that conscious content is evolutionarily driven to map closely with reality, and on the other to say that love is just pheromones and oxytocin playing with you. They are mutually exclusive positions.

You seem to think that because an event has a description in evolutionary terms as well as physical terms that it is contradictory. You don't even know what "mutually exclusive means".

Wouldn't evolution push us toward feeling love as neurotransmitters being secreted if that's what the reality is? Wouldn't we avoid oxytocin producing situations because it could distract us from the more evolutionarily important agenda of seeking the fittest mates? Where is this blather you speak of?


    This is supposed to be the reason why we don't perceive 'reality' as it is -
    probabilistic quantum computations.

    Who says computations are reality (besides Bruno)?


What do you say reality is?

I don't know. I only know that some models of the world seem to work better than others. Your "sensory/motor" seems to be one of those "God did it" theories that explains everything and predicts nothing.

Brent



    The relation between "reality", "computation", and "perception" here are
    misconceived because only two of the three make sense together any way you 
slice
    it. If you have computation and reality, there is no point of perception.

    Before you can make that into an interesing argument you would have to show 
that
    everything must "have a point", whatever that means...something like 
aligning with
    reality?


In order to have that argument, you would have to define having 'an interesting argument' without smuggling in the denied premise of 'having a point'.

I didn't deny, it just wonder what it means?  what's "a point"?

If you can say that there's a point to having an interesting argument, then I can say that there is no point to having perception if you already have computation of data which perception supposedly corresponds to.

And I can say what's the point of having momentum if you already have mass and 
velocity?

Brent


Craig


    Brent

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