On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 5:48:19 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: > > Craig: > > > > The mistake you make is clearly stated in your words: > > > > “…doesn’t mean that they communicated with judgment.” > > > > You are anthropomorphizing. The value is no more nor no > > less than the action taken upon signal acceptance. >
That's ok, but it means there is no value. There is simply action. Craig > > > wrb > > > > *From:* everyth...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> [mailto: > everyth...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>] *On Behalf Of *Craig Weinberg > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 05, 2013 1:27 PM > *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> > *Subject:* Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information > > > > > > On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:07:00 PM UTC-5, William R. Buckley wrote: > > The fact that a machine can act in a discriminatory based > > upon some signal (sign, information) input is demonstration > > of value judgment. > > > Only in our eyes, not in its own eyes. It's like telling a kid to say some > insult to someone in another language. The fact they are able to carry out > your instruction doesn't mean that they communicated with judgment. > > > > > Just as there is no **in** in a machine, so to there is no **in** > > in a biological organism; they both, machine and organism, > > > But there is an 'in' with respect to the experience of an organism - only > because we know it first hand. There would seem to be no reason why a > machine couldn't have a similar 'in', but it actually seems that their > nature indicates they do not. I take the extra step and hypothesize exactly > why that is - because experience is not generated out of the bodies > associated with them, but rather the bodies are simply a public view of one > aspect of the experience. If you build a machine, you are assembling bodies > to relate to each other, as external forms, so that no interiority > 'emerges' from the gaps between them. > > > are forms that treat other forms in certain proscribed ways. > > > > You cannot demonstrate otherwise. > > > Sure I can. Feelings, colors, personalities, intentions, historical > zeitgeists...these are not forms relating to forms. > > Craig > > > > > wrb > > > > *From:* everyth...@googlegroups.com [mailto:everyth...@googlegroups.com] *On > Behalf Of *Craig Weinberg > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 05, 2013 10:37 AM > *To:* everyth...@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: Messages Aren't Made of Information > > > > > > On Tuesday, March 5, 2013 3:53:31 AM UTC-5, Alberto G.Corona wrote: > > Let´s say that what we call "information" is an extended form of sensory > input. What makes this input "information" is the usability of this input > for reducing the internal entropy of the receiver or increase the internal > order. The receiver can be a machine, a cell, a person or a society for > example. If the input do not produce this effect in the receiver, then that > input is not information. > > > The increase of internal order of the receiver is a symptom of an > experience of being informed but they are not the same thing. It's not > really even relevant in most cases. I would not call it an extended form of > sensory input, but a reduction of sensory experience. Input is not a > physical reality, it is a conceptual label. > > Consider Blindsight: > > I hold up two fingers and ask how many fingers? > > "I don't know.' > > Guess > > 'two'. > > This example tells us about information without tying it to decreased > entropy. My two fingers are a form. I am putting them into that form, so > the process of my presenting my fingers is a formation of a sign. > > The sign is not information at this point. It means something different to > an ant or a frog than it does to a person looking at it. If you can't see, > there is no formation there at all unless you can collide with my fingers. > > When the patient responds that they don't know how many fingers, it is > because they personally have no experience of seeing it. They are not being > informed personally by the form of my fingers in front of their face > because they have blindsight. > > When they guess correctly, they still have not been informed. Only we know > that the information is correct. At this point you could say that there is > some decrease in information entropy of the receiver as far as we are > concerned, but in fact, for the receiver themselves, they have not > increased any internal order. > > A machine has blindsight about everything. They can be queried and produce > valid responses to inform us, but they are never informed themselves. There > is no 'in' in a machine, it is an organization of forms which treat other > forms in a proscribed way. Forms are copied, transformed, and presented in > a context that it has no experience of. My computer sees nothing that I see > on this screen. It reads nothing that I type here. It doesn't know what the > Everything List is - not even Google knows what it is - only that the > string of characters in the name is to be associated with an ip address. > > Craig > > > > 2013/3/2 William R. Buckley <bill.b...@gmail.com> > > > >Thinking about how information content of a message > > Big mistake. Information is never contained with but > exactly one exception, an envelope. > > I made this point with Jesper Hoffmeyer regarding a > statement in his book Biosemiotics, that information > is represented but not contained in that representation. > That marks of chalk upon slate may be taken to represent > information at a meta level above the reality of streaks > of a deformed amorphous solid has nothing to do with > the information represented by that deformation, nor the > increase of entropy associated with the greater disorder > obtained from that deformation; these are but three of > the *informations* to be found upon review of those > streaks. Entropy is how nature sees information (not > yet an established fact but I think the tea leaves read > clear enough) but that has (presumably) nothing to do > with how intelligent individuals see information, or > as von Uexküll called such phenomena, signs. > > Most definitely the information is not to be found > within the material of its expression, its representation. > Rather, the information is already to be found within the > interpreter. > > That which is information is so by virtue of the acceptor > of that information; else, it is noise. > > And, write the information on a piece of paper and seal > the paper within an envelope and you may justifiably > claim that the information is contained; else, you are > deluding yourself. > > > >has an inversely proportionate relationship with the > >capacity of sender and receiver to synchronize with > >each other. > > > > ....<snip> > > wrb > > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > > -- > Alberto. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-li...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. > To post to this group, send email to everyth...@googlegroups.com<javascript:> > . > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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