On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:53 AM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> On Thursday, April 4, 2013 7:10:45 AM UTC-4, stathisp wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 8:26 AM, John Mikes <jam...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Stathis wrote:
>>> *"I also have a very simple and straightforward idea of free will: I
>>> exercise my free will when I make a choice without being coerced...."*
>>> *
>>> *
>>> And how do you know that you are *not* coerced? your mind works on both
>>> conscious and (sub-? un-? beyond-?) conscious arguments that 'influence'
>>> (nicer, than 'coerced') your decisive process. Then again you may decide
>>> to
>>> 'will' against your best (or not-so-best?) interest - for some reason.
>>> You even
>>> may misunderstand circumstances and use them wrongly.
>>> All such (and another 1000) may influence (coerce??) your free decision.
>>> Continuing your sentence:
>>>
>>
>> I'm not coerced when I don't think I am coerced. Obviously, all my
>> actions are due to subconscious influences, namely, the biochemistry of my
>> brain, of which I am unaware.
>>
>
> Why are all of your actions "obviously" due to subconscious influences? If
> that were the case why would personal awareness exist?
>

Your actions are due to physical processes in your brain which move your
muscles, but you are not actually aware of these physical processes. You
can't tell me that you feel neurons firing in your cerebellum, for example.
It is an inference from empirical data that the brain is the organ of
thought at all.

You seem stuck on the belief that it is not possible to be conscious if the
processes leading to consciousness are deterministic, random or
subconscious. As a matter of logical deduction, this is false. It is
possible for a thing to have qualities different from its parts.


> * "...I never said that the laws of physics deny the possibility of free
>>> will,
>>> but free will is impossible if you define it in such a way as to be
>>> incompatible with the laws of physics or even with logic."*
>>> *
>>> *
>>> The "Laws" of physics are our deduction from the so far observed
>>> incomplete
>>> circumstances - they don't "allow" or "deny" - maybe explain at the
>>> level of their
>>> compatibility. The "impossibility" of free will is not a no-no, unless
>>> it has been
>>> proven to be an existing(?) FACT (what I do not believe in).
>>> Logic is the ultimate human pretension, especially if not said 'what
>>> kind of'.
>>>
>>
>> In order to decide if free will exists the first thing is to understand
>> what is meant by the term. If it means "I choose to do what I want I do"
>> then free will exists. If it means something else such as "neither
>> determined nor random" then it doesn't exist.
>>
>
> What do you claim is the difference between choosing to do what you want
> to do and acting as a physical phenomenon which is intentional rather than
> unintentional (determined or random)?
>

I don't accept your claim that "intentional" (either in the common sense or
the philosophical sense) is incompatible with the phenomenon being
determined or random. It seems to be something you just made up and present
as self-evident, which it certainly is not.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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