On Friday, April 5, 2013 6:47:00 PM UTC-4, stathisp wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com>wrote: > > Why are all of your actions "obviously" due to subconscious influences? If >>>> that were the case why would personal awareness exist? >>>> >>> >>> Your actions are due to physical processes in your brain which move your >>> muscles, but you are not actually aware of these physical processes. >>> >> >> How can you be any more aware of those processes than by being them? >> > > Because I have no idea that these processes are going on, or even that I > have a brain. Why do you think people used to believe that they think with > their hearts, or with their immaterial soul? >
People thought that because they tried to explain private physics in the terms of public physics instead of understanding it in its own terms. You already are aware of the relevant aspects of your brain function, and aware of them in a way which is a million times more detailed than any fMRI could ever be. The problem is that you are making the same mistake that the immaterialists make only in reverse. You begin with absolute certainty in what instruments have shown us of the outside of matter to the extent that you doubt what your own native senses tell you about the inside of matter. > > >> You can't tell me that you feel neurons firing in your cerebellum, for >>> example. >>> >> >> No, neurons firing are my feeling already, there is no more way that they >> can be felt from the human perspective. >> > > But you are directly aware that your fingers are hitting the keys and > control them to write your email. You do not make such a decision to > activate cortical centres; it happens when you do something, but it is > subconscious. > It's subconscious but its still me. Of course I make the decision to activate cortical centres, I AM the cortical centers and when I turn my attention toward particular capacities, that attention is represented publicly as simulataneous and serial changes in tissues, cells, and molecules. I am not in my body, my body is just how I look at any given moment to participants other than me. > > >> It is an inference from empirical data that the brain is the organ of >>> thought at all. >>> >>> You seem stuck on the belief that it is not possible to be conscious if >>> the processes leading to consciousness are deterministic, random or >>> subconscious. As a matter of logical deduction, this is false. It is >>> possible for a thing to have qualities different from its parts. >>> >> >> This would be a case where the intentional would have to come from its >> complete opposite - from the unintentional (determined and random), which >> could happen theoretically, but not in a universe which had no use for >> intention. A universe where intentionality is fundamental can pretend to be >> unintentional, but unintentional can't pretend to be anything. >> Unintentional is anesthetic and has no plausible use for intention. >> > > Why does the universe need to hae a "use" for something? Who made this > rule? > It's not a rule it's reason. If there were no fish in the water, there would be no such thing as gills. If there were gills on a cow, then that would be weird, especially if someone was saying that gills are an illusion. > And what difference does it make if you say intentionality is fundamental > or emergent? It could be a fundamental fact that consciousness will emerge > when matter is organised in particular ways. > The difference is that the argument that intention must be reduced to determinism or randomness doesn't make any sense but it makes perfect sense that intention would be fundamental and determinism and randomness would naturally arise as perceptual fictions. The idea that consciousness will emerge from an organization of inanimate, unconscious matter (which makes no sense to begin with since there is no real way to conceive of a universe devoid of all detection and presentation) is just a religious faith with no explanatory power at all. Why not just say that when there are a trillion customers at the galactic WalMart that consciousness appears on a random planet. > > >> * "...I never said that the laws of physics deny the possibility of >>>>>> free will, >>>>>> but free will is impossible if you define it in such a way as to be >>>>>> incompatible with the laws of physics or even with logic."* >>>>>> * >>>>>> * >>>>>> The "Laws" of physics are our deduction from the so far observed >>>>>> incomplete >>>>>> circumstances - they don't "allow" or "deny" - maybe explain at the >>>>>> level of their >>>>>> compatibility. The "impossibility" of free will is not a no-no, >>>>>> unless it has been >>>>>> proven to be an existing(?) FACT (what I do not believe in). >>>>>> Logic is the ultimate human pretension, especially if not said 'what >>>>>> kind of'. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In order to decide if free will exists the first thing is to >>>>> understand what is meant by the term. If it means "I choose to do what I >>>>> want I do" then free will exists. If it means something else such as >>>>> "neither determined nor random" then it doesn't exist. >>>>> >>>> >>>> What do you claim is the difference between choosing to do what you >>>> want to do and acting as a physical phenomenon which is intentional rather >>>> than unintentional (determined or random)? >>>> >>> >>> I don't accept your claim that "intentional" (either in the common sense >>> or the philosophical sense) is incompatible with the phenomenon being >>> determined or random. It seems to be something you just made up and present >>> as self-evident, which it certainly is not. >>> >> >> You don't accept it but you have no reason to offer for your opinion. I >> present my view as self-evident because to me it certainly is. It's funny >> for you to talk about 'making things up' since that is certainly a thing >> which makes no sense in an unintentional universe. >> > > I have a good reason for my opinion: > > Fact 1 accepted by everyone: we are conscious. > Fact 2 accepted by everyone except you: everything that happens in the > universe is either determined or random. > "Everyone" meaning like three people on this list? A lot of people think that the universe does not include their own life. They conceive of the universe from the view from nowhere, like some perfect diorama which exists in an observation bubble. When presented with real opportunities to participate in the world, nobody thinks that what they eat for lunch is determined by physics or random, they personally contribute to their own lunch experience and the universe fully supports that. It does not require any metaphysical powers that defy the laws of gravity, we simply weigh the various influences which are available to us and settle on what we prefer, or create a new idea. Then we move through the world directly to get what we want to eat for lunch. There is no physical agenda which shows up on an fMRI which says 'yep, this is brainstem for pastrami sandwich. He has no choice but to get a pastrami sandwich. > Conclusion: hence, consciousness is compatible with a deterministic or > random universe. > That's your argument? "Everyone" thinks there is no free will (using their free will, of course) so there must not be. Wow. How could any religious fundamentalist have an argument that was any worse than that. Seriously, here's how that would go. I have a good reason for my opinion: Fact 1 accepted by everyone: it is good that we are conscious. Fact 2 accepted by everyone except you: everything that happens in the universe is either determined by God or the Devil. Conclusion: hence, consciousness is only possible if God made it. Craig > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > > > -- > Stathis Papaioannou > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.