On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Craig Weinberg
<whatsons...@gmail.com<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'whatsons...@gmail.com');>
> wrote:

Why are all of your actions "obviously" due to subconscious influences? If
>>> that were the case why would personal awareness exist?
>>>
>>
>> Your actions are due to physical processes in your brain which move your
>> muscles, but you are not actually aware of these physical processes.
>>
>
> How can you be any more aware of those processes than by being them?
>

Because I have no idea that these processes are going on, or even that I
have a brain. Why do you think people used to believe that they think with
their hearts, or with their immaterial soul?


> You can't tell me that you feel neurons firing in your cerebellum, for
>> example.
>>
>
> No, neurons firing are my feeling already, there is no more way that they
> can be felt from the human perspective.
>

But you are directly aware that your fingers are hitting the keys and
control them to write your email. You do not make such a decision to
activate cortical centres; it happens when you do something, but it is
subconscious.


>  It is an inference from empirical data that the brain is the organ of
>> thought at all.
>>
>> You seem stuck on the belief that it is not possible to be conscious if
>> the processes leading to consciousness are deterministic, random or
>> subconscious. As a matter of logical deduction, this is false. It is
>> possible for a thing to have qualities different from its parts.
>>
>
> This would be a case where the intentional would have to come from its
> complete opposite -  from the unintentional (determined and random), which
> could happen theoretically, but not in a universe which had no use for
> intention. A universe where intentionality is fundamental can pretend to be
> unintentional, but unintentional can't pretend to be anything.
> Unintentional is anesthetic and has no plausible use for intention.
>

Why does the universe need to hae a "use" for something? Who made this
rule? And what difference does it make if you say intentionality is
fundamental or emergent? It could be a fundamental fact that consciousness
will emerge when matter is organised in particular ways.


> * "...I never said that the laws of physics deny the possibility of free
>>>>> will,
>>>>> but free will is impossible if you define it in such a way as to be
>>>>> incompatible with the laws of physics or even with logic."*
>>>>> *
>>>>> *
>>>>> The "Laws" of physics are our deduction from the so far observed
>>>>> incomplete
>>>>> circumstances - they don't "allow" or "deny" - maybe explain at the
>>>>> level of their
>>>>> compatibility. The "impossibility" of free will is not a no-no, unless
>>>>> it has been
>>>>> proven to be an existing(?) FACT (what I do not believe in).
>>>>> Logic is the ultimate human pretension, especially if not said 'what
>>>>> kind of'.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In order to decide if free will exists the first thing is to understand
>>>> what is meant by the term. If it means "I choose to do what I want I do"
>>>> then free will exists. If it means something else such as "neither
>>>> determined nor random" then it doesn't exist.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What do you claim is the difference between choosing to do what you want
>>> to do and acting as a physical phenomenon which is intentional rather than
>>> unintentional (determined or random)?
>>>
>>
>> I don't accept your claim that "intentional" (either in the common sense
>> or the philosophical sense) is incompatible with the phenomenon being
>> determined or random. It seems to be something you just made up and present
>> as self-evident, which it certainly is not.
>>
>
> You don't accept it but you have no reason to offer for your opinion. I
> present my view as self-evident because to me it certainly is. It's funny
> for you to talk about 'making things up' since that is certainly a thing
> which makes no sense in an unintentional universe.
>

I have a good reason for my opinion:

Fact 1 accepted by everyone: we are conscious.
Fact 2 accepted by everyone except you: everything that happens in the
universe is either determined or random.
Conclusion: hence, consciousness is compatible with a deterministic or
random universe.


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou


-- 
Stathis Papaioannou

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