Hi John,

On 14 Apr 2013, at 00:10, John Mikes wrote:

Bruno, I stand corrected (redface): I had a closed mind for NDE considered only as the observable experience on the 'patient' in a "dying-like" situation. Your airplane-example opened my eyes: it may refer to experiences when someone (a group?) faces death.

Thanks for telling me. I knew you are a serious guy :)



Adding my story to my mistake:
I had a similar experience in the 1944 siege of Budapest when 5 of us were crammed into a small WC watching the sounds of explosions of the Russian serial gun-hits closing in on us 1-2 seconds apart. We did not know which "next" one will hit us. Every participant had a totally different attitude, I kept a strong observing eye on them (to keep myself sane). Fortunately the salvos hit higher than where we were and destroyed a higher ├ętage.
I forgot to realize that things have more than one aspect to watch.
This WAS a NDE - on others. We just knew that we're gona die.
No philosophy, no physiology, no 'return'. Then we heard the explosions passing "us?" i.e. coming from further and further.

Yes, that's a "third person NDE". I am happy you survived.

Best,

Bruno





John





On Sat, Apr 13, 2013 at 8:15 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 12 Apr 2013, at 23:56, John Mikes wrote:

Bruno, thanks for the consenting remarks to my post. HOWEVER....
you wrote:

"...Some non-toxic and non-addictive drugs provokes NDE or alike. Anyone, with a few practice, can see by itself.

I have a theory that salvia might go farer, and be a genuine DEAD experience. You have the choice to stay there, and they send a copy of you on earth. This does not contradict comp, because the copy, despite being fully conscious all the time, get your memory back slowly, so that the copy feels becoming "you", but "you" can see your "original self" staying there. This is frequent in the salvia reports (the copy effect, or the max effect as I call it in the entheogen.net forum)

.With comp the NDE is predictable, and the logic G and G* can be described as the logic of the near inconsistency state, which is the normal logic of the self-referentially correct machine (there are cul-de-sac accessible from any state). In a sense, life is a near death experience all along. What is still amazing, and might contradict comp, is that we can live NDE or DE and come back with some realist memories of the event. .."

Who told you about "a real???" NDE? Live people imagine various fables.

Hi John, sorry, I was probably unclear, by a real NDE I mean when someone concretely approach death. My favorite collection is given by the plane crash investigations. I call that sometime third person NDE, and they are or not related to what is called NDE and which concerns usually the first person report (the light, the tunnel, ...).

So, when you are in a plane, and the plane fall 5000 miles, you do a near death experience, with or without the usual first person NDE account.

In some context, by a "non real" NDE, I can also mean a NDE brought by the use of a drug (like DMT or salvia), as opposed as the experience brought by going concretely near death, like when falling from a mountain, or surviving a plane crash.



Congrats to your 'theory' about Salvia, - still within your imagination.

All theories are within our imagination. But the one brought by salvia can be shown to be also in the imagination of all universal machine. But it belongs to G* - G, and is not communicable as such.



Fable, I could say, about the "COPY", the "SENDING B A C K to Earth, etc. etc.

That's a report of experience. It is like a dream report. Nobody should take the content as something believed or even believable.


All
these are good for discussions on the Everything list - no merit in my opinion.
I tried to get 'entheogen.net': Google did not find it.

You might try clicking on this:

http://entheogen-network.com/forums/index.php?sid=5f144b42a9e7d2045066513721ec5436

or this (salvia discussion)

http://entheogen-network.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=8

My username there is salvialover24.




Nobody "CAME BACK" from a real NDE or DE especially not with REALIST
Memories. Fantasies - maybe.
Sorry, Bruno, I don't want to spoil your game or good feeling. Just chat.

No problem. I will come back on this some day, perhaps, but the NDE is rather easy to explain in the comp theory/belief. I don't insist on that, as the notion of NDE is a bit hard for many to keep being rational on, but this is just one more symptom of the Aristotelian widespread superstition in "Matter", "primary physicalness", etc.

With salvia, on me and on others, I have also got a better understanding of the paradoxical nature of any theology. It is morbid subject matter. But we need to use it a little bit to grasp where the physical reality comes from, when we assume computationalism.

Bruno





John Mikes


On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 6:32 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 05 Apr 2013, at 21:39, John Mikes wrote:

I think I side with Craig: NDE is not "N" enough, is not "D" because the 'observer' (gossiper?) came "back" and not "E" - rather a compendium
of hearsay (s)he stored previously about "D"-like phenomena.
When a (human or other) complexity dissolves (= death) nobody comes back to tell the stories. This comes from a 'participant' and long time partner in OUIJA-board sessions of honest friends. I still cannot explain those miraculous experiences (saved my life once) coming allegedly from 'dead' benefactors I knew before they died.

I do not support the reference to the BIG journals (had ~100 publications, some in such, then was editor of a 'smaller' one) - it is 'click-stuff' and refereed by well selected (opinionated) scientists mostly.

I agree. "impact factor" and "big name" leads to self-sustained argument per authority.



However the reference to the Nobel prize lost its credibility e.g. with certain (peace)Prize assignment going to a war-monger politician.

I agree very much. Despite I was inclined to believe that Obama might make some progressive change, I find absurd to give a price before seeing him doing anything. I will ask for the Nobel prize in medicine and I will promised to the work after :)

Since then Obama has signed the NDAA bill, which is a mysterious frightening fact, and since he is in power, he has killed many civilians by using the drones in an unprecedented manner, may be there should be something like a withdrawal of price (that happened to me, BTW!).



Even in sciences it occurred that hypothetical and fantasy-based ideas were awarded the Prize

Indeed. But that's OK. Big genius are the one saying big stupidities.




(e.g. circumstances of the Big Bang etc.). Not to mention the questionable lit.

What does an agnostic like myself believe? that we don't know 'it'.

Some non-toxic and non-addictive drugs provokes NDE or alike. Anyone, with a few practice, can see by itself.

I have a theory that salvia might go farer, and be a genuine DEAD experience. You have the choice to stay there, and they send a copy of you on earth. This does not contradict comp, because the copy, despite being fully conscious all the time, get your memory back slowly, so that the copy feels becoming "you", but "you" can see your "original self" staying there. This is frequent in the salvia reports (the copy effect, or the max effect as I call it in the entheogen.net forum).

With comp the NDE is predictable, and the logic G and G* can be described as the logic of the near inconsistency state, which is the normal logic of the self-referentially correct machine (there are cul-de-sac accessible from any state). In a sense, life is a near death experience all along. What is still amazing, and might contradict comp, is that we can live NDE or DE and come back with some realist memories of the event.

The crash investigation reports gives interesting reports on third person person NDE. You can see the beneficial effect on some people.

Good to stay agnostic. The fun consists in trying theories and testing them, not in taking any of them as a truth, ever.

Bruno








John M


On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:56 PM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013  Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dull in what way?

Dull in the way that reading what some Bozo I've never heard of typed onto a obscure website about experimental results that would revolutionize not just science but the entire world if true are dull.

> You didn't read the article I guess

I have not read it nor do I intend to; let me know when something like that shows up in Science or Nature or Physical Review letters.

  John K Clark


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