On 05 Apr 2013, at 21:39, John Mikes wrote:

I think I side with Craig: NDE is not "N" enough, is not "D" because the 'observer' (gossiper?) came "back" and not "E" - rather a compendium
of hearsay (s)he stored previously about "D"-like phenomena.
When a (human or other) complexity dissolves (= death) nobody comes back to tell the stories. This comes from a 'participant' and long time partner in OUIJA-board sessions of honest friends. I still cannot explain those miraculous experiences (saved my life once) coming allegedly from 'dead' benefactors I knew before they died.

I do not support the reference to the BIG journals (had ~100 publications, some in such, then was editor of a 'smaller' one) - it is 'click-stuff' and refereed by well selected (opinionated) scientists mostly.

I agree. "impact factor" and "big name" leads to self-sustained argument per authority.



However the reference to the Nobel prize lost its credibility e.g. with certain (peace)Prize assignment going to a war-monger politician.

I agree very much. Despite I was inclined to believe that Obama might make some progressive change, I find absurd to give a price before seeing him doing anything. I will ask for the Nobel prize in medicine and I will promised to the work after :)

Since then Obama has signed the NDAA bill, which is a mysterious frightening fact, and since he is in power, he has killed many civilians by using the drones in an unprecedented manner, may be there should be something like a withdrawal of price (that happened to me, BTW!).



Even in sciences it occurred that hypothetical and fantasy-based ideas were awarded the Prize

Indeed. But that's OK. Big genius are the one saying big stupidities.




(e.g. circumstances of the Big Bang etc.). Not to mention the questionable lit.

What does an agnostic like myself believe? that we don't know 'it'.

Some non-toxic and non-addictive drugs provokes NDE or alike. Anyone, with a few practice, can see by itself.

I have a theory that salvia might go farer, and be a genuine DEAD experience. You have the choice to stay there, and they send a copy of you on earth. This does not contradict comp, because the copy, despite being fully conscious all the time, get your memory back slowly, so that the copy feels becoming "you", but "you" can see your "original self" staying there. This is frequent in the salvia reports (the copy effect, or the max effect as I call it in the entheogen.net forum).

With comp the NDE is predictable, and the logic G and G* can be described as the logic of the near inconsistency state, which is the normal logic of the self-referentially correct machine (there are cul- de-sac accessible from any state). In a sense, life is a near death experience all along. What is still amazing, and might contradict comp, is that we can live NDE or DE and come back with some realist memories of the event.

The crash investigation reports gives interesting reports on third person person NDE. You can see the beneficial effect on some people.

Good to stay agnostic. The fun consists in trying theories and testing them, not in taking any of them as a truth, ever.

Bruno








John M


On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 3:56 PM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013  Craig Weinberg <whatsons...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dull in what way?

Dull in the way that reading what some Bozo I've never heard of typed onto a obscure website about experimental results that would revolutionize not just science but the entire world if true are dull.

> You didn't read the article I guess

I have not read it nor do I intend to; let me know when something like that shows up in Science or Nature or Physical Review letters.

  John K Clark


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