On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 4:04 PM, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 29, 2013 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> wrote:
>> > I don't really understand why you insist that intelligence is a harder
>> > problem than consciousness.
> As I've said many times and people just shrug off,
John, I never shrugged off any of your ideas, I always considered
them. Maybe you're projecting a bit?
> Evolution figured out how
> to make a brain that produces intense emotion about 500 million years ago
> but it only figured out how to make intelligence, the sort of intelligence
> that we're proud of, a few hundred thousand years ago. The facts are
> undeniable, either Charles Darwin was wrong or consciousness is a byproduct
> of intelligence. And I don't think Charles Darwin was wrong.
I don't think Charles Darwin ever wrote anything about consciousness.
Evolution is not a theory of consciousness. It's a theory on the
origin of biological complexity.
Again, you're creating a false dichotomy by using your dogma (not
Darwin's) that consciousness arrises from intelligence. But borrowing
Bruno's argument, will you be in Moscow or New York if you get
>> > I think we have very solid hypothesis on why some things behave
>> intelligently, you explained it yourself.
> We know why Evolution produced intelligence but not how.
Oh we know a lot about how already. It's just harder to grasp if you
> I explained why
> Evolution selects for intelligence but does not select for consciousness,
> but If I knew the General Theory of Intelligence I'd be the richest man who
> ever lived, and I'm not. On the other hand just about everybody on this list
> has their own personal General Theory of Consciousness, and they're all
> different and they all work equally well; in other words they're all equally
>> > We know nothing about consciousness
> So you're saying that after all the verbiage written about it on this list
> and all the electrons that have given their lives to discuss this subject on
> the internet the end result is that nobody knows anything or has anything of
> interest to say about consciousness. Well that doesn't sound too far from
> the truth to me, so maybe that means its time to think about something else.
I meant that we know nothing scientifically about consciousness.
Possibly because it's a problem outside of the scope of science. This
realisation is what makes me agnostic instead of atheist.
>>> >> as I said before, I personally would not work fine if I thought I was
>>> >> the only conscious being in the universe
>> > Ok, but please notice -- this is exactly the same reason a lot of people
>> > claim for being religious. That they couldn't face life without god.
> Very true, and that would be a very good reason to believe in God with the
> truth of the matter being irrelevant. If someone really could not function
> without the belief in God (I doubt that many people actually fall into that
> category, but never mind) then the logical thing to do would be to believe
> in God even though that belief is false.
> And in a similar way it's logically possible that I am the only conscious
> being in the universe, but it would be foolish of me to believe that is
> actually the case because that would render me non functional. And I think
> the same would be true of you unless you really are a intelligent zombie.
One possibility, of course, is that consciousness is the fundamental
stuff. That doesn't change the fact that me, as a particular
instantiation of that fundamental stuff, have a context and
experiences. I want to avoid pain and seek pleasure. I don't see how
believing in a single consciousness, for example, changes that.
> John K Clark
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