On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> wrote:

 >> The facts are undeniable, either Charles Darwin was wrong or
>> consciousness is a byproduct of intelligence. And I don't think Charles
>> Darwin was wrong.
> > I don't think Charles Darwin ever wrote anything about consciousness.

Probably because he thought it was so obvious he didn't need to spell it
out, but if you insist I will spell it out. Again.

Darwin's idea was that he was the product of Evolution. Darwin knew that
Evolution could see intelligent behavior and select for it. Darwin knew
that Evolution could not even see consciousness much less select for it.
Darwin knew for a fact that he was conscious. And I know for a fact that
Darwin was a intelligent man, therefore I conclude that Charles Darwin
thought that consciousness was a unavoidable consequence of intelligence or
his theory was wrong. Darwin did not think his theory was wrong and neither
do I.

> > I want to avoid pain and seek pleasure.

Yes, and there were probably mutant animals that found sex painful and so
avoided it and grievous bodily injury pleasurable and so sought it out, but
you and I are not like that because none of our ancestors were like that,
in fact mutants of that sort left no descendants at all.

> >> We know why Evolution produced intelligence but not how.
> > Oh we know a lot about how already. It's just harder to grasp if you
> reject emergence.

I don't reject it, I just want to know the difference between saying "shit
happens" and saying "it happened because of emergence". Yes, complicated
systems behave in ways that are, well, complicated; but tell me something I
didn't know.

> > One possibility, of course, is that consciousness is the fundamental
> stuff.

Yes, I think that is by far the most likely possibility! But if that is
indeed true then its meaningless to ask, as so many on this list do, what
consciousness is made of because "fundamental stuff" is the point where
your chain of "what is that made of?" questions come to a end. That's what
fundamental means. So if its really fundamental then after saying that
consciousness is the way data feels like when it is being processed there
is nothing more to say.

  John K Clark

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