On 01 May 2013, at 16:35, John Clark wrote:

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com> wrote:

>> The facts are undeniable, either Charles Darwin was wrong or consciousness is a byproduct of intelligence. And I don't think Charles Darwin was wrong.

> I don't think Charles Darwin ever wrote anything about consciousness.

Probably because he thought it was so obvious he didn't need to spell it out, but if you insist I will spell it out. Again.

Darwin's idea was that he was the product of Evolution. Darwin knew that Evolution could see intelligent behavior and select for it. Darwin knew that Evolution could not even see consciousness much less select for it.

Can you give a reference where Darwin mentions consciousness?

Note that I agree with you that consciousness is a product of intelligence. But Intelligence is more easy than consciousness. Competence and stupidity asks for more work. For intelligence you need not more than Peano Arithmetic cognitive ability. It already makes you humble and modest and guessing about something bigger than you.





Darwin knew for a fact that he was conscious.


Really? References please.



And I know for a fact that Darwin was a intelligent man, therefore I conclude that Charles Darwin thought that consciousness was a unavoidable consequence of intelligence or his theory was wrong. Darwin did not think his theory was wrong and neither do I.

Darwin theory must extends to the origin of the natural laws, to be consistent with computationalism. But you need to grasp the FPI and go farer than step two to see this.






> I want to avoid pain and seek pleasure.

Yes, and there were probably mutant animals that found sex painful and so avoided it and grievous bodily injury pleasurable and so sought it out, but you and I are not like that because none of our ancestors were like that, in fact mutants of that sort left no descendants at all.

>> We know why Evolution produced intelligence but not how.

> Oh we know a lot about how already. It's just harder to grasp if you reject emergence.

I don't reject it, I just want to know the difference between saying "shit happens" and saying "it happened because of emergence". Yes, complicated systems behave in ways that are, well, complicated; but tell me something I didn't know.

> One possibility, of course, is that consciousness is the fundamental stuff.

Yes, I think that is by far the most likely possibility! But if that is indeed true then its meaningless to ask, as so many on this list do, what consciousness is made of because "fundamental stuff" is the point where your chain of "what is that made of?" questions come to a end. That's what fundamental means. So if its really fundamental then after saying that consciousness is the way data feels like when it is being processed there is nothing more to say.

You are using an identity thesis which can make sense for highly infinite machine, but is refuted for machines most reasonable quasi- finite entities.

If you attach consciousness to a machine, the machine will attach her consciousness to an infinity of machines, and that infinity has testable consequences when the machine look below her substitution level.

Bruno





  John K Clark




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