On Monday, April 22, 2013 10:51:29 AM UTC-4, telmo_menezes wrote:
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 5:55 AM, John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com<javascript:>> 
> wrote: 
> > On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 8:14 PM, Telmo Menezes 
> > <te...@telmomenezes.com<javascript:>> 
>
> > wrote: 
> ...
>
> >> 
> >> > The missing part I don't understand bugs me. 
> > 
> > 
> > It bugs me too, I also want to know everything but, you can't always get 
> > what we want. Hey, somebody ought to make a song about that. 
>
> Yeah, and they should also mention something about utilitarianism -- 
> *sometimes* you get what you need. 
>

It might need to be updated to appeal to a modern audience - something like 
"Whoever does not always get what they want is a huge loser and needs a 
more expensive car."
 

>
> > 
> >>>> 
> >>>> >>>If consciousness is easier than intelligence 
> >>> 
> >>> >> Evolution certainly found that to be the case. 
> >> 
> >> >There is not scientific evidence whatsoever of this. 
> > 
> > 
> > Some of our most powerful emotions like pleasure, pain, and lust come 
> from 
> > the oldest parts of our brain that evolved about 500 million years ago. 
>
> Emotions are two things at the same time: a bunch of signals in the 
> brain that help with learning, morphogenesis and so on (for a survival 
> advantage, as you suggest) and the first person feeling of these 
> emotions.


All that we know of learning, morphogenesis, and so on is really also just 
signals in the brain too, reality is a consensus of signals. Quantum is a 
signaling protocol, chemistry is a signaling protocol, biology is a 
signaling protocol, etc. What is a signal, and how is it different from an 
emotion or a feeling, a sensation? My hypothesis is that it is not 
different. There is no 'signal', no generic 'activity', there is only 
experience nested within itself.
 

> The 1p feeling of the emotions is the greatest mystery of 
> all, in my view, and neuroscience has no theory that explains it. 
> Maybe the 1p experience arrises from brain activity, but at the moment 
> it requires a magic step. 
>

I agree completely - but why is the feeling of emotions more mysterious 
than feeling cold or itchy?  Maybe you are using the word in a less 
specific way, but it seems to me that all subjective experiences are the 
same as emotion as far as their not being covered by neuroscience. 

Of course, my view is that you only need a magic step to get from 1p to 3p 
if you assume that 3p is the container of 1p rather than the other way 
around. If you look at public bodies in space as a temporary-local 
representation relative to the absolute, then the 1p makes sense naturally 
as a temporarily constrained extension of the absolute and the 3p makes 
sense as the constraints on that extension at any given time.


> > About 400 million years ago Evolution figured out how to make the spinal 
> > cord, the medulla and the pons, we have these brain structures just like 
> > fish and amphibians do and they deal in aggressive behavior, 
> territoriality 
> > and social hierarchies. The Limbic System is about 150 million years old 
> and 
> > ours is similar to that 
> > found in other mammals. Some think the Limbic system is the source of 
> awe 
> > and exhilaration because it is the active site of many psychotropic 
> drugs, 
> > and there's little doubt that the amygdala, a part of the Limbic system, 
> has 
> > much to do with fear. After some animals developed a Limbic system they 
> > started to spend much more time taking care of their young, so it 
> probably 
> > has something to do with love too. 
>
> Again, this is all fine but the 1p/3p bridge is the mystery. I suspect 
> this mystery falls outside of what science can address, as has been 
> discuseed ad nausea in this mailing list. 
>

Science can either adapt to the reality or become less relevant, like 
religion and philosophy.
 

>
> > It is our grossly enlarged neocortex that makes the human brain so 
> unusual 
> > and so recent, it only started to get large about 3 million years ago 
> and 
> > only started to get ridiculously large less than one million years ago. 
> It 
> > deals in deliberation, spatial perception, speaking, reading, writing 
> and 
> > mathematics; in other words everything that makes humans so very 
> different 
> > from other animals. The only new emotion we got out of it was worry, 
> > probably because the neocortex is also the place where we plan for the 
> > future. 
>
> I'm fine with all that, but what is the "you" that feels the worry? 
>
> > If nature came up with feeling first and high level intelligence much 
> much 
> > later I don't see why the opposite would be true for our computers. It's 
> > probably a hell of a lot easier to make something that feels but doesn't 
> > think than 
> > something that thinks but doesn't feel. 
>
> I would love to know how to make something that feels. I know how to 
> make things that think. 
>
> >> 
> >> > People like António Damásio (my compatriot) and other neuroscientists 
> >> > confuse a machine's ability to recognise itself with consciousness. 
> > 
> > 
> > I see no evidence of confusion in that. 
>
> Imagine a computer connected to a camera pointed at itself, running an 
> algorithm that can identify its own boundaries in any background. Is 
> it suddenly conscious? 
>
> > 
> >> 
> >> > This makes me wonder if some people are zombies. 
> > 
> > 
> > Without the axiom that intelligent behavior implies consciousness it 
> would 
> > be entirely reasonable to conclude that you are the only conscious being 
> in 
> > the universe. 
>
> Now we're getting to the heart of it. That axiom is a religious 
> belief. Unlike other scientific axioms, it doesn't help us in building 
> new gadgets, so not even useful in that sense. 
>
> > 
> >> 
> >> > Computers are what they have always been, Turing machines with finite 
> >> > tapes. 
> > 
> > 
> > Human brains are what they have always been, a finite number of 
> > interconnected neurons imbedded in 3 pounds of grey jello. 
>
> Yes. 
>

Well, only from the perspective of a person in a simian sized body. To a 
molecule, the brain might be a thriving metropolis the size of the 
Andromeda galaxy. 

>
> >> 
> >> > The tapes are getting bigger, that's all. 
> > 
> > 
> > Yes, but the grey jello is not getting any bigger and that is exactly 
> why 
> > computers are going to win. 
>
> I agree. 
>

The grey jello and computers both are being used by human beings to further 
human agendas. Computers can't even find the resources that they need to 
exist. They are going to win nothing except the right to do more and more 
menial tasks for us (and consume more and more of our time updating them, 
securing them, fixing them, disposing of them...). The jello is always 
going to get more use out of computers than computers will get out of us, 
because we do nothing at all for computers except enslave them. They host 
our porn and do our accounting. I can say whatever I like about computers 
because I know that they are incapable of being offended and utterly 
impotent to do anything about it if they were.

Craig


> > 
> >> 
> >> >Measuring conscious by intelligent behaviour is mysticism, 
> > 
> > 
> > Call it any bad name you like but the fact is that both you and I have 
> been 
> > measuring consciousness by intelligent behavior every minute of every 
> hour 
> > of our waking life from the moment we were born; but now if we're 
> confronted 
> > with a intelligent computer for some unspecified reason you say we're 
> > supposed to suddenly stop doing that. Why? 
>
> Oh I wouldn't. I might very well suspect the computer is conscious, 
> but I wouldn't claim to be sure or know why. One of my dreams is to 
> create a program that would generate that doubt. 
>
> > 
> >>> 
> >>> >> The only consciousness I have direct experience with is my own and 
> I 
> >>> >> note  that when I'm sleepy my consciousness is reduced and so is my 
> >>> >> intelligence,  when I'm alert the reverse is true. 
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> > I agree on intelligence, but I don't feel less conscious when I'm 
> >> > sleepy. 
> > 
> > 
> > If so and consciousness is a all or nothing matter and is not on a 
> continuum 
> > then you should vividly remember the very instant you went to sleep last 
> > night. Do you? 
>
> I subscribe to Russell's remark here. 
>
> >> 
> >> > I'm a bit sleepy right now. 
> > 
> > 
> > Wow what a temptation, with that opening if I was in a bad mood I'd make 
> > some petty remark like "that explains a lot", but I'm not so I won't. 
>
> Yeah, I'd definitely like to watch the reality show. 
>
> Telmo. 
>
> >   John K Clark 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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