2013/7/11 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> > > On 11 Jul 2013, at 14:12, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > > I quote myself: > "But the religious instinct in the primitive sense is not about love and > compassion, but the contrary it is about fanaticism and exclusion of these > that are not in agreement. " > > > I might believe the contrary. What you say could make sense for very local > religion and we might argue on what a religion is, but I am "universalist" > on this matter, and religion is what can unite people and help to recognize > oneself in the others. It cannot exclude the others and it go in the > direction of love and compassion, but also circumspection toward dividing > ideas. >
That is exactly your civilizational bias, which is obviously Christian. I´m talking about the -primitive- function of the religious instinct . And primitive means obviously local, tribal. Sincé almost all , except a few milennia of civilizational and two milenia of universalism, the humans have evolved in small tribal groups where no other capital existed except the social capital of respect and valuation inside small groups. That is the reason why whenever an orgaized religión the collapses or the society become more heterogeneous and the ties weaken, the natural outcome is the re-creation of these small groups. Call it mafia, urban tribus, sectarian politics etc. All of them work the same way: you sacrifice something for us, yo show that you deserve to enter, we help you, you from time to time demosntrate again your wothtiness, we keep helping you. If you try to leave, bad things will happen to you. Obviosly this need a set of rites. Most of them are unnoticed for the one that does not know, but they run unconsciously , that is, emotionally. The more and more the life depends of these groups, the payment is bigger. > > > > > > This is incomplete: the fanaticism and the exclusion is there for well > stablished game theoretical reasons: to create a strong boundary between > collaborators and non collaborators, and thus to reinforce collaboration. > Reasoning in terms of game theory sacrifice is the unavoidable requirement > for stablishing that boundary. > > > I understand this at the level of biology, where such boundaries are > needed. But the divine, if used for identity and boundaries purpose seems > to be closer to blasphemy and pseudo-religion. > It is the religión in the most primitive sense. primitive religion has nothing to do with God. It has to do with a Leader, dead or alive. The cult to the dead ancestors, The cult to the personality in socialist countries, the cult to the Padrino in the Mafia, the cult to the leader of a rock band That is the true, most basic, primitive religion. God and Teology is the product of the civilization and rationalization of the religious instinct. > > > > > Unavoidably, when there social capital is reduced to this group and there > is no other form of spiritual union beyond the sect, the sacrifices become > stronger and stronger, since even the life depend on the group , to be safe > from the attack of other groups. The first and the last sacrifice is, of > course, human sacrifices. to kill non sectarians. and to demonstrate that > one has the will and the disposition to kill. > > > Hmm... That looks again more like the terrestrial game of life. > You never could call it a game if you read this 80 years ago in Europe. during the world wars. Just look at the history and don´t be biased by this exceptional peaceful period that is coming to the end. > > > > That is what the sacrifice of Christ free us from, and it is the > unavoidable destiny of a society that leave their Christian beliefs. > > > I am not sure I understand. > Read above: to maintain our social capital implies periodic sacrifices. The sacrifice of Christ paid our deeds -once and for all- for being worth and appreciated by other human beings. The belief on that calm our innate desire to demand the sacrifice of the others for us and the desire to sacrifice ourseves. We are worth ad dignified because the Son of God loved us, their sons upto the point of dying for us. What sacrifice a son has to do for their brothers and their beloving Father? None. > > > > This happened in a few years in Germany and communist countries for only a > matter of example. > > > You might elaborate because I feel like I am missing something. > > ordinary Germans killing jews in the streets and comunists denouncing their fathers for counterrevolutionary activities knowing that they will be executted. What worst horrendous sacrifice can you imagine? > Bruno > > > > > > > > 2013/7/11 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> > >> >> On 10 Jul 2013, at 23:05, Alberto G. Corona wrote: >> >> I do not exactly agree. since religion is a natural inclination, and >> atheists have no organized religion >> >> >> It depends on which atheist sect you talk about. It is an hard subject >> because those sect are secret. I know them as I leave them, and like all >> sect, it is a difficult task to say the least. >> >> >> >> >> then the religious way of thinking permeate all their lives. I´m not >> trying to be pejorative. But the religious instinct in the primitive sense >> is not about love and compassion, but the contrary it is about fanaticism >> and exclusion of these that are not in agreement. >> >> >> Yes. >> >> >> >> >> And it is about sacrifices to demonstrate the worthiness of each one for >> the sectarian group. >> >> Chiristianity in this sense gives freedom from this primitive, >> sectarian, sacrifice demanding instinct and canalizes it in positive ways. >> >> >> There too it will depend on which sect or branch of christianity you talk >> about. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 2013/7/10 Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> >> >>> I am amazed these days at the antagonism atheists hold against >>> religion. >>> I suppose it has to be that way, for there is a natural draw of men >>> toward religion. >>> And if their rejection weren't so oversized, they might fall victim to >>> religion-- >>> that is, to learn humility, and be filled, without any worth or work on >>> their own, >>> with faith, hope, and love. >>> >>> How torturous. >>> >>> >>> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] >>> See my Leibniz site at >>> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough >>> >>> >>> Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] >>> See my Leibniz site at >>> http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alberto. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> > > > > -- > Alberto. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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