Bruno,

Is there cosmos without arithmetic?

Richard


On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 2:41 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

>
> On 25 Sep 2013, at 18:53, Richard Ruquist wrote:
>
> You are saying there is no cosmos without people???
>
>
> ?
> I do not say that.  I say that there is no people without cosmos (and that
> there is no arithmetic without people).
>
>
>
>
> Well anyway you pointed out the arithmetic and logic
> necessary for the cosmos to evolve people
> and I thank you for that.
>
>
> Thanks. You might cite the papers (It is much older than Tegmark, btw, and
> tegmark is still missing the first person indeterminacy. I suspect you to
> are not yet taking into account that indeterminacy. You still link, like
> Tegmark, the mind to a machine, and the machine to a mind, but mind is
> attached to infinities of machines and computations. By machine I mean the
> immaterial mathematical one (as always).
>
> I will make other comments. You link Göel's theorem with arithmetic, but
> Gödel's original theorem was done on a typed set theory, and Gödel's
> theorem works for all rich mathematics (ZF, etc.). It is not related to
> arithmetic per se. Your use of it is a bit obscure for me, and alas, I
> don't know enough of string theory to evaluate some other part of the paper.
> If one day you can explain string theory for the dummy ... (I read Kac's
> book on Vertex Algebra, and my knowledge of it is quite formal).
>
> Your paper seems interesting, but still too much "physicalist" with
> respect of the computationalist assumption.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 11:03 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>
>> Hi Richard,
>>
>>
>> On 25 Sep 2013, at 16:29, Richard Ruquist wrote:
>>
>> Bruno: "Imagined by people supported by infinities of computations. But
>> the imagination is reduced itself to arithmetical relations (even finite
>> one, now), so it is a monism."
>>
>> Richard: Are you saying that without people there cannot be comp? I would
>> prefer a more cosmic machine as in http://vixra.org/abs/1303.0194
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Where does such cosmos come from? You start from what I show we have to
>> derive (from arithmetic, which you assume too).
>>
>> Without people, there is no arithmetic, because arithmetic implies
>> (logically) the existence of people (and with comp they are conscious).
>>
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 25 Sep 2013, at 14:40, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 2:58:25 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 24 Sep 2013, at 20:58, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Monday, September 23, 2013 1:16:08 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> shape belongs to the category of numbers imagination, and with comp
>>>>> this is given by  arithmetical relations.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Numbers imagination seem like human imagination to me.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nice. That is a reason for taking number's talk seriously.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I had more of 'numbers imagination = pathetic fallacy' meaning in mind.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> OK, but then you beg the question, and just repeat: I believe that comp
>>> is wrong, without explaining why.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It is not. What is important is to not impose certainties on other. To
>>>>> make clear what we assume.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's what I am trying to do - make clear what you assume. If you
>>>> start out granting numbers imagination, then you have already have
>>>> consciousness, and have no need for comp.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Of course. Comp is an assumption concerning consciousness and
>>>> computations. Then the *conclusion* is that the theory of everything is
>>>> elementary arithmetic.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Buy everything that is not obviously elementary arithmetic can just be
>>> presumed to be part of numbers imagination.
>>>
>>>
>>> No, you have to do the math and verify that it predicts correctly what
>>> we see. Up to now, comp predicts the MW, with a quantum structure, and a
>>> core symmetrical structure (but we have not yet really its linear aspect,
>>> nor the measure istelf, etc.).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Comp is not a theory of everything,
>>>
>>>
>>> Indeed. It is a philosophical or theological principle or assumption.
>>> Then, if we make that assumption, the theorem is that the theory of
>>> everything is given by arithmetic or anything Turing equivalent.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> its a dualism of everything computational vs everything imagined by
>>> computations.
>>>
>>>
>>> Imagined by people supported by infinities of computations. But the
>>> imagination is reduced itself to arithmetical relations (even finite one,
>>> now), so it is a monism.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe you can get a set of variables with unknown values, but why
>>>>> would they have a smell or sound?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Because if they didn't, you would die when saying "yes" to the doctor.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, you would.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Because you assume non-comp, but I still don't see why.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Because flavors exist, but comp has no reason to imagine them.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, the one saying "yes" to the doctor does have a reason to hope for
>>> it, and he can hope that the evidences (the Turing emulability of
>>> biophysical known object) are not misleading.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The truth or falsity of comp is out of my topic.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am interested only in the refutability of comp.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That may already be biasing the evaluation of comp beyond repair.
>>>> Consciousness is not about refutability,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Doing a precise theory is about making a refutable theory.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Depends if the theory is about consciousness or not. Consciousness can
>>> only be a baseless assertion. It is the base of all assertion and the
>>> assertion of all bases.
>>>
>>>
>>> You assume consciousness to be fundamental, and matter. That is coherent
>>> with your non-comp theory, but is not an argument against comp.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> it is about perceiving and participating. Refutability is a second
>>>> order logic derived from that. If you use the weak standard of
>>>> refutability, then you cannot be surprised when we take a puppet for a
>>>> person.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can hardly be surprised, because that is mainly what I assume.
>>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJRluXBa4e8
>>>
>>>
>>> Cute, but not quite convincing for the present topic.
>>>
>>> Bruno
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bruno
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruno
>>>>>
>>>>>  http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~**marchal/<http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
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