On 17 Nov 2013, at 04:24, Samiya Illias wrote:

Bruno wrote: "In a sense, with comp, the illusions and dreams are more real that the stuff we imagine, which are useful fictions."

Dreams and illusions are not stuff we imagine?


Not really, because the "we" is part of the dreams.

With comp, all there is is the numbers: 0, s(0), s(s(0)), .... (read s(x) = successor of x = x + 1). Together with classical logic, and the laws of addition and multiplication:

x + 0 = x
x + s(y) = s(x + y)

 x *0 = 0
 x*s(y) = x*y + x

Just from this you can prove the existence of all computations, and thus of all dreams (the 1p view of the person emulated by the computation(s), when there is one).

So the dreams and illusions exist in arithmetic, and we are part of them.

Physical realities emerge from all those computations, from the statistics due to the first person indeterminacy, and this gives the illusion (which can be "real" in some local higher sense) of persistent sharable dreams or "multi-user video games".

There are no brains, nor particles nor field, at the ontological level. Those are only consistent information patterns in number's dream (more exactly in the experience of the persons whose relative existence are supported by the computations having the correct relative frequencies in arithmetic).

With computer science, dreams and computations obeys laws which are independent of us, and those laws seems to explain where the physical reality *and* the stable persistent experience of it come from.

NUMBERS ===> DREAMS ===> PHYSICAL REALITIES   (to sum up a lot)

Bruno






How do you differentiate?


On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 16 Nov 2013, at 11:32, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 5:22 AM, Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com> wrote: Never mind who said it. Considering what we know of quantum mechanics, is everything real made of everything unreal? Does that mean that everything is actually unreal, a holograph, a reflection of our mind, if that is real?

As Bruno said, "real" is not properly defined. If you interview some
random person on the street, you are likely to get something like
real=material. Under that definition, I think most of us would agree
with the quote. But this is a naive and uninteresting definition of
real.

I have a friend who's a psychiatrist and likes the definition: "real
is what does not go away when you stop believing it". He likes it
because it's useful to him, because it helps with therapy in many
cases. I think this definition will also run into problems with comp.
It already runs into problems even with Plato and his cave. But he has
it easy, because his job is just to guide people into a state of
consciousness where they can hopefully have a life with less
suffering. Of course, the buddhists might argue that he's not doing it
right :)

I think Bruno might agree with this: 2 + 2 + 4 is real.

Yes, 2+2+4 is real, and 2+2=4 is true.

If the base theory is arithmetic, 2+2+4 is the same object as s(s(s(s(s(s(s(s(0)))))))). If we use the combinators instead, 2+2+4 would be the name of some complex combinators, and would seem less primitive and more like a derived element, making the objective reality a bit of a convention, almost. What counts are the illusions from inside. They don't depend on the choice of the absic reality. In a sense, with comp, the illusions and dreams are more real that the stuff we imagine, which are useful fictions.

Bruno







On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Jesse Mazer <laserma...@gmail.com> wrote:

I suspect this is one of those fake quotes that gets circulated around the
internet; searching for "everything we call real" and "bohr" on
books.google.com I mostly just find it in various religious/ spiritual books,
nothing scholarly (and nothing dating back to before 1986).

Jesse


On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 10:51 PM, Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com >
wrote:

Neils Bohr is famously quoted as saying: 'Everything we call real is made
of things that cannot be regarded asreal. If quantum mechanics hasn't
profoundly shocked you, you haven't understood it yet.”
What's your take on this?

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