On 30 Nov 2013, at 22:40, meekerdb wrote:

On 11/30/2013 4:06 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:

In fact, materialism cannot explain matter, either. Worst, it avoids trying to explain it at the start.

It's not worse, it's logic. Whatever is taken as fundamental in a theory is not something explained in the theory. Your theory takes numbers and arithmetic for granted.

Computationalism has to take anything Turing universal at the start. Without something Turing universal, you get no Turing universal things, and so, numbers+add+mult (or anything recursively equivalent) is the minimal we need to start with.

But for the physical there is a tradition of doubting that we have to take it in the basic assumption. it is the debate between Plato and Aristotle. "Popular religion" is the popular oversimplified (often for political reason) of Plato.

There is no problem with a physicist taking matter for granted, or assuming it, even implicitly, when they do physics. There is a problem with metaphysics, or theology, or philosophy taking matter for granted, or not assuming it explicitly, because that becomes a huge lack of rigor, and makes it impossible to understand that mechanism is incompatible with materialism.

The problem is not with physics, but with implicit physicalism, in a place where science has just not decided. It is a deny of ignorance, or an imposition of a dogma.



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