On 12/2/2013 1:02 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:


On 02 Dec 2013, at 05:37, meekerdb wrote:

On 12/1/2013 12:12 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:

    but there is no known proof (or even an argument offered by materialists) 
that
    matter cannot be explained in terms of something simpler.

    Of course not.  That would the point the it's fundamental.


The point of Jason if I may, is that there is no way to explain numbers without assuming them... but there are ways to explain matter without assuming it.

I'm not convinced of either of those points. And as I noted "to be explained" does entail that something cannot be fundmental, only that it might not be.

OK, but then we use Occam razor. Thermodynamic cannot disprove the existence of invisible horse.

Of course I meant to write, "And as I noted "to be explained" does NOT entail that something cannot be fundamental".

But I don't think it's so simple as applying Occam's razor. In my example "red" is an experience that from the perspective of conscious thoughts may have no explanation, i.e. is fundamental. But from the perspective of biology has an explanation in terms of physics and chemistry. From an evolutionary perspective it has an explanation in terms of survival advantage. So Occam's razor cuts different ways depending on the perspective.

Brent


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