Bruno: All this does not define the natural numbers in the sense of a logical categorical definition. Why we understand them is a mystery, but we can meta-explained why that mystery is unsolvable. We don't need an infinity axiom in the ontology (indeed the axioms of the TOE is RA: no infinity axioms, not even induction axioms). But with comp at the meta-level, we do use infinity axioms at the epistemological level---or at least the creature generated by RA do that, and we interview them to retrieve the physical laws.

Richard: Could explain why the physical laws are not ontological.? On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 3:47 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > On 09 Dec 2013, at 20:06, meekerdb wrote: > > On 12/9/2013 1:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 09 Dec 2013, at 01:33, LizR wrote: > > On 9 December 2013 05:52, John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 4:38 PM, LizR <lizj...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Could you name a materialistic theory that explains consciousness >>> >> >> Consciousness is the feeling information has when it is being processed; >> if conscious is fundamental, that is to say it comes at the end of a long >> line of "what is that?" questions, then after saying that there is just >> nothing more that can be said about it. And hey, it's just as good as a >> billion other consciousness theories. >> > > Ah yes, Max Tegmark's "theory".These aren't theories, is the problem. > One needs a rigorous definition of what consciousness is, to start with, > and then a theory that explains all its observed features, and makes > testable predictions. Otherwise all one has is a jumble of words. > > > To be precise, we don't need a definition of what consciousness is. WE > need only to agree on some assertion on consciousness. It is the same with > line and points. The same with natural numbers. We don't need to define > them (in fact we can't). We need only to agree on axioms about them, and > methods or rules of logical inference/deduction. > > > And we learn what are natural numbers in the same way, ostensively by > one's mother holding up fingers and saying "one", "two",... And so we > generalize and make a theory about fingers and other countable things. And > we know that in all cases we run into we can add one more and so we > casually assume an axiom of infinity because it is convenient and seems to > cause no problems. But if it leads to paradoxes and absurdities... > > > All this does not define the natural numbers in the sense of a logical > categorical definition. Why we understand them is a mystery, but we can > meta-explained why that mystery is unsolvable. We don't need an infinity > axiom in the ontology (indeed the axioms of the TOE is RA: no infinity > axioms, not even induction axioms). But with comp at the meta-level, we do > use infinity axioms at the epistemological level---or at least the creature > generated by RA do that, and we interview them to retrieve the physical > laws. > > This is a point where I might be quick sometimes/ > > UDA start from comp, and at step 8, we should understand that the TOE is > RA (or equivalent), and comp is replaced by the restriction to the sigma_1 > sentences for the epistemology. > So going from UDA to AUDA, comp passes from the base level to the > metalevel. In AUDA we assume RA, and interview richer believer (like PA) as > generated by RA (or equivalently the universal dovetailer). After UDA, we > know that we dont need and cannot need anything more than > > 0 ≠ s(x) > s(x) = s(y) -> x = y > x+0 = x > x+s(y) = s(x+y) > x*0=0 > x*s(y)=(x*y)+x > > The comp philosophy is then translated entirely in term of definitions, > and theorems in that theory. > > Bruno > > > > > Brent > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.