On 23 Dec 2013, at 20:43, meekerdb wrote:
On 12/23/2013 11:33 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2013/12/23 meekerdb <[email protected]>
On 12/23/2013 10:55 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2013/12/23 Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]>
All,
The question of whether God exists is meaningless without first
giving some definition of what is meant by God, of how God is
defined. Otherwise everyone is talking about different things and
nothing will go anywhere.
If you need a God there is only one possible rational definition
and that is to just define God as the universe itself. First there
is now absolute certainty that God does exist
Well no... It is certain that I experience a reality but that
there exists a consistent physical universe defined everywhere is
not certain...
Is your experience consistent, i.e. describable without
contradictions? OK, then how you conceive it is your model of
reality and the universe. If it includes things independent of
your thoughts external to you, and other people that agree on these
things, then that's the physics of it. Whether it's 'defined
everywhere' would depend on your model.
I agree but any model is *far* from certainty... so defining "God"
as meaning the universe doesn't settle at all that it exists...
I agree. In fact it tends to drag a lot of bronze age tribal
baggage into scientific questions - which is why I wish Bruno would
stop casually using religious metaphors.
It is not a metaphor. saying "yes" to the doctor asks for a non
metaphorical act of faith, and cannot be imposed to anyone, for reason
of conceptual consistency and humanity).
You seem to associate religion with the Aristotelian traditions, but
it can also be associated with the rational mysticism of Plato and its
followers (and Pythagorus' too). Indeed, with comp, it has to be
associated with Plato/Plotinus. It gives basically Aristotle minus all
fairy tales about creator *and* the creation.
If you don't do that, people will continue to believe that the
primitive existence of the physical universe is a scientific fact,
which it is not.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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