On 23 Dec 2013, at 20:43, meekerdb wrote:

On 12/23/2013 11:33 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:

2013/12/23 meekerdb <meeke...@verizon.net>
On 12/23/2013 10:55 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote:
2013/12/23 Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net>

The question of whether God exists is meaningless without first giving some definition of what is meant by God, of how God is defined. Otherwise everyone is talking about different things and nothing will go anywhere.

If you need a God there is only one possible rational definition and that is to just define God as the universe itself. First there is now absolute certainty that God does exist

Well no... It is certain that I experience a reality but that there exists a consistent physical universe defined everywhere is not certain...

Is your experience consistent, i.e. describable without contradictions? OK, then how you conceive it is your model of reality and the universe. If it includes things independent of your thoughts external to you, and other people that agree on these things, then that's the physics of it. Whether it's 'defined everywhere' would depend on your model.

I agree but any model is *far* from certainty... so defining "God" as meaning the universe doesn't settle at all that it exists...

I agree. In fact it tends to drag a lot of bronze age tribal baggage into scientific questions - which is why I wish Bruno would stop casually using religious metaphors.

It is not a metaphor. saying "yes" to the doctor asks for a non metaphorical act of faith, and cannot be imposed to anyone, for reason of conceptual consistency and humanity). You seem to associate religion with the Aristotelian traditions, but it can also be associated with the rational mysticism of Plato and its followers (and Pythagorus' too). Indeed, with comp, it has to be associated with Plato/Plotinus. It gives basically Aristotle minus all fairy tales about creator *and* the creation. If you don't do that, people will continue to believe that the primitive existence of the physical universe is a scientific fact, which it is not.



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